Unarmed Combat

[vagabonvoid]

I'm a fan of unarmed combat and grappling in RPGs (I was a wrestler in high school and have been in martial arts all my life). I am wondering how unarmed characters will be treated in 4E.

We have already seen a glimpse of the grab mechanics, which I like (ala SAGA). I am hoping to see in the core rules feats and abilities like in SW SAGA. I am wondering what everyone else here thinks it will be like?

Here is my take.
>To keep up with damage, unarmed strikes may be increased to 1d4 like in SW SAGA edition (no more complicated d3 [/sarcasm])
>Improved Unarmed Strike will still be a feat, but it may increase damage to a 1d6. It wouldn't matter too much, since as you level a character's damage increases.
>We already know that old feats effects like trip and bull rush will be Powers. Due to this I think there may be powers like Pin or Throw from SAGA (these may not be in the first PHB, but if they are not I will be the first to write them up). Here are a few I made up on the fly... Please, be gentle...

At-Will Powers

Pin Pugilist Attack 1
You lock onto an opponent and drag them to the ground.
At Will + martial, weapon
Standard Action Grab
Requirement: You must be unarmed.
Target: One Creature
Attack Grab vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[w] damage, and the target is immobilized for one round.

Throw Pugilist Attack 1
You bring your opponent off balance, sending them several feet away.
At Will + martial, weapon
Standard Action Grab
Requirement: You must be unarmed.
Target: One Creature
Attack Grab vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[w], and you push the target a number of squares equal to your str mod if it is your size, smaller than you, or one size category larger.

Encounter Power

Dislocate Pugilist Attack 1
You lock your enemy’s joint and twist until you hear them wail in pain.
Encounter + martial, Weapon
Standard Action Grab
Requirement: You must be unarmed.
Target: One Creature
Attack Grab vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2[w]damage and target is slowed until the end of the encounter (save ends).

Daily Power

Power Slam Pugilist Attack 1
You pull your opponent off balance, sending him into the air and slamming him into the ground hard.
Daily + martial, Weapon
Standard Action Grab
Requirement: You must be unarmed.
Target: One Creature
Attack Grab vs. Reflex
Hit: 3[w] damage and target is dazed (save ends).
Miss: half damage and no daze effect

 

[TheLastEmperor]

How will size difference be taken into account?

 

[vagabonvoid]

How will size difference be taken into account?

Probably like it is in SAGA edition, there is a bonus/penalty for different sized creatures...Possibly even restricting certain powers (see throw power above) to keep a hero from picking up a titan and throwing him a few squares.

For dragons, or any other larger beast with a swallow whole check (grapple in 3.x) will probably be encounter powers in 4E.

 

[TheLastEmperor]

Interesting. I don't have any experience with SW SAGA edition. Are there restrictions for throwing opponents more than 1 size category larger than your character?

 

[vagabonvoid]

It doesn't outright give a restriction in SAGA, though it is more a part of flavor... If you try to pin a rancor, and succeed... you are very lucky and twisted its toe in the right way; if you try to throw a rancor, and get lucky then it tripped over you and stumbled into the wall.

Though, this doesn't come up in SAGA because grapple boosts (like improved grapple, clever wrestling, counter attack...) do not exist as they are in 3.x. So even a grapple specialist will never be on par with a much larger, much stronger creature.

I just put the restriction on throw because it keeps even a character getting very lucky from grabbing a Tarrasque and launching it into a pit.

 

[Sora Justice]

I am wondering what everyone else here thinks it will be like?

Not handled until a following book. Focus is far, far more important than a set of rules that are apropos to precisely no printed class.

 

[Kosh]

Those are great!

Just to mix things up a little, maybe Dislocate should be Grab vs Fortitude. Right now they all target Reflex.

The daily power needs a miss:, effect:, or reliable entry to keep it in line with the other powers we've seen. Maybe half damage and no daze?

 

[vagabonvoid]

EDIT NOTIFICATION

Changed Dislocate and Power Slam per suggestions. Thx guys!

 

[Ximenes088]

Given the known lack of the Monk class and the distinct likelihood that no special provenance will be made for unarmed combatants, here's how I intend to handle it until an actual monk class comes out:

Feat: Unarmed Combatant
Benefits: Pick a one-handed weapon. Your unarmed attacks count as that weapon for feat, class power, and weapon statistic purposes. Unarmed attacks are treated as magical weapons with a +1 bonus/4 full levels. This feat may be taken multiple times to allow for different weapon substitutions for unarmed attacks.

Feat: Armor of Discipline
Benefits: By breathing exercises and bodily control, you duplicate the effect of armor and a shield. Choose any one normal armor with which you have proficiency. Optionally, also choose any one shield with which you have proficiency. While conscious, you are treated as wearing that suit of armor and that shield for all feat, class power, and armor statistics, including movement hindrance and skill checks. You may "remove" or "don" this armor with a standard action to focus or relax. This phantom armor gains magical enhancement bonii at a rate of +1 bonus/4 full levels. You may not use this feat while wearing any form of armor.

Poof. I now have a monk class- just one that takes that feat and then picks Rogue, if they want to play a striker-style monk, or Fighter if they want to be a defender-style monk. Your unarmed attack and phantom armor levels at the same predicted rate as magical weaponry, so you don't lose out too much from passing up magical gear.

For a striker monk, they pick Rogue. If they want to go for a fast, precise combat style they pick "dagger" as their substitute unarmed attack and gain the rogue's +1 to hit with daggers. If they want more damage, they pick "shortsword" and use that weapon's 1d6 damage roll. The Rogue class powers revealed so far are all fairly good models of "highly mobile, precision based martial artist who hits you where it hurts". Sneak Attack can stay as-is for ninja-style monks, or you can simply graft in the Ranger's Quarry skill in its place as being a good approximation.

For a wade-into-a-swarm-of-mooks style monk, they pick Fighter. They can then use Armor of Discipline to duplicate the armor class of a standard fighter while still maintaining their "Look ma! No armor!" aesthetic, and use shield-based maneuvers like Tide of Iron. They can also take advantage of fighter weapon trick powers by simply taking that weapon as their Unarmed attack analog.

The above solution won't give monks a lot of highly monk-specific grapple, throw, and trip powers, but really, Tide of Iron sure _looks_ like a throw, and the Rogue combat maneuvers sure _appear_ to involve flipping around past people and jumping about. If I can make a serviceable monk class out of inserting two feats into the rules, I'm counting it an excellent system for versatility.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I haven't looked at the prereleased stuff all that closely, but what I'm seeing described in this thread reminds me of something I've seen elswhwere.

If you look at HERO (esp. 4Ed and 5Ed), martial arts are done as collections of maneuvers. In Ultimate Martial Artist (again, published in 4Ed & 5Ed), the list is expanded.

The maneuvers listed in HERO, but for some terminology, look a lot like the D&D 4Ed stuff described here- you may want to take a look at those for sources of inspiration. The HERO 4Ed one has to be dirt cheap by now.