Unarmed Damage and Claws (grapple)

[Wyvernhand]

Wow...twice in one day, I learn something new. Why is it reference it so strongly in the Monk description then?

There is a lot of redundant text in D&D, especially in the Monk description, I've noticed. This lends to confusion, since why would a rule be referenced unless it is an exception? In reality, it's just a reiteration of what the rules are elsewhere in an effort to "collect everything in one place". Fail, IMO, but thats another story.

@Wyvernhand it then seems to me that I would get both. Since I get to do unarmed damage by hurting my opponent, and I just so happen to get claw damage whenever I win a grapple check.

Are you saying I don't get to do both in the turn I use grab, or any turn? Also, what about when I don't use grab but just a normal grapple?

There is already a mechanic that does exactly what you are talking about. That's Constrict. Constrict deals additional damage every time you win a grapple check. You either use the rules for Imp Grab (deal claw damage) if you started a grapple with Imp Grab, or you use the rules for grappling if you started the grapple normally (UAS damage). I don't see any support in the rules for doing both at the same time, since the section I quoted above in Imp Grab effectively overwrites the normal part of grappling where you deal UAS damage.

If you used the above mentioned Beast Strike feat (from some Dragon Mag or another), you could grapple a foe normally, deal UAS damage, and THEN add claw damage to that, but it would just be the normal die damage, not any modifiers on that damage from Str or other factors, however.

Also, depending on how you interpret "monster" HD, you shouldn't even get Imp Grab. Given that there is no book definition of "monster" HD (there's Racial HD, and there's class HD, thats it) its most likely a reference to racial HD. Most PCs don't have any or many RHD, so they wouldn't get any of those abilities as they level up.

Also, you might want to check out the miniguide that me and Solo wrote. It has a lot of information on natural attacks and how they interact with iterative weapons. Nothing in there on grappling, but its still useful.

 

[amphoterik]

There is already a mechanic that does exactly what you are talking about. That's Constrict. Constrict deals additional damage every time you win a grapple check. You either use the rules for Imp Grab (deal claw damage) if you started a grapple with Imp Grab, or you use the rules for grappling if you started the grapple normally (UAS damage). I don't see any support in the rules for doing both at the same time, since the section I quoted above in Imp Grab effectively overwrites the normal part of grappling where you deal UAS damage.

If you used the above mentioned Beast Strike feat (from some Dragon Mag or another), you could grapple a foe normally, deal UAS damage, and THEN add claw damage to that, but it would just be the normal die damage, not any modifiers on that damage from Str or other factors, however.

Also, depending on how you interpret "monster" HD, you shouldn't even get Imp Grab. Given that there is no book definition of "monster" HD (there's Racial HD, and there's class HD, thats it) its most likely a reference to racial HD. Most PCs don't have any or many RHD, so they wouldn't get any of those abilities as they level up.

Also, you might want to check out the miniguide that me and Solo wrote. It has a lot of information on natural attacks and how they interact with iterative weapons. Nothing in there on grappling, but its still useful.

OK, I think that is where we are diverging. I am reading improved grab straight from the feral template which doesn't have the line you bolded in your statement above. In the feral template I am reading (and the DM approved the abilities I have even though I don't have the racial HD, they just don't get better), it doesn't say constrict. It just says any won grapple checks net me the claw damage.

So I suppose at this point I need to ask the DM which improved grab I am using for this char.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Part of the issue is that Savage Species is a 3.25 edition book. It was released so late in 3.0s life cycle, right before 3.5 was released. It's also heralded as one of the worst edited books in all of 3rd edition.

It could probably be considered errata to use the 3.5 MM wording for the Imp Grab over the SS wording. Regardless, what you are talking about is exactly what Constrict is. Exactly. If Feral was supposed to give what is essentially Constrict, why wouldn't they just give you Constrict so it wouldn't be ambiguous?

 

[LiL KiNG]

For the Feral template and the abilities based on monster hit die I believe the following from the SRD explains how this works;

"Humanoids and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class."

The Feral template also states it changes (or adds to) your subtype to become a monstrous humanoid. So a level 1 human fighter with the feral template becomes a human (monstrous humanoid) or humanoid (human, monstrous) - however you want to word it. Then since he has no monstrous (1 or less) hit die, his class hit die become his effective monstrous hit die.
The feral template is very powerful for a +1LA though... the +natural armor, bonus to speed, claws with above average damage for size and darkvision abilities alone are a lot, but to get the imp. grab, rend, etc makes this is a beast of a template.

Hey Amphoterik (neat name by the way), where are you from?

 

[amphoterik]

Yes, I agree. Though the DM did reduce down a few of the abilities and the armor. Still, very good. I really took it mostly for the character flavor. Everything else is gravy.