Unarmed, two-weapon, and natural attacks question.

[IcyCool]

I was thinking about this the other day:

Could a character with Improved Unarmed Strike, armor spikes, and a claw/claw/bite natural attack routine use them all in the same full attack? For example, could you two-weapon your unarmed and armor spikes attacks, and then after that get your natural attacks?

With the right feats and a haste spell, you could squeeze out 11 attacks in a round, that can't be right, can it?

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Far as I know, it's legal, but if you're DM, I'd say you're justified in restricting the use of unarmed strikes with claw/slam natural attacks. Adding your bite to your unarmed strike progression is fair.

The armor spikes TWF issue bothers me, theoretically, but I've never seen anyone take advantage of it.

I'm going to have to sit down and figure out how TWF and Multiattack interact now-- since allowing them to interact as written is... unpleasant.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's legal.

Keep in mind you've got a -5 penalty to your natural weapon attacks, and that they all get only .5 of your Strength mod to damage. They're also likely to be nonmagical and non-special material, meaning you'll have problems with DR.

And, as a DM, you'd be wrong in limiting the use of unarmed strikes when mixed with claw / slam attacks, since you can just as easily headbutt with an unarmed strike as punch.

TWF and Multiattack do not interact at all. TWF deals with manufactured weapons, and Multiattack changes the AB penalty on secondary natural weapons.

 

[ARandomGod]

You certainly can. With the right feats, races, and classes you could also get a natural slam attack, two levels of Dragon Disciple will give you a Bite/claw/claw...

The two weapon fighting chain can give you an additional three attacks... But to get to Dragon Disiple (2) you'll have to give up at least 2 BAB. Assume at level 20 an 18 BAB

Four normal base attacks, plus three for two weapon fighting, plus four secondary weapon attacks... yup, that's 11. 12 with haste.

If you can add flurry in with TWF (some say you can't, let's not get into that so just say *if*), then you can have 12 per round easily (you'd have to look and see if you could get the greater flurry extra attack and still have a BAB of at least 16). That's pre-haste.

 

[IcyCool]

Ok. So what would your attack routine look like for the following:

BAB +16
Improved Unarmed Strike Feat
+1 Armor Spikes
Claw/Claw/Bite natural attack routine
Multiattack Feat
Two Weapon Fighting Feat
Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat
Greater Two Weapon Fighting Feat

And what would be the better off-hand weapon, your Unarmed Strike, or your Armor Spikes?

 

[IcyCool]

If you can add flurry in with TWF (some say you can't, let's not get into that so just say *if*), then you can have 12 per round easily (you'd have to look and see if you could get the greater flurry extra attack and still have a BAB of at least 16). That's pre-haste.

I won't go the flurry route, but the Rage variant "Whirling Frenzy", seems like it would word just as well, yes?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Ok. So what would your attack routine look like for the following:

BAB +16
Improved Unarmed Strike Feat
+1 Armor Spikes
Claw/Claw/Bite natural attack routine
Multiattack Feat
Two Weapon Fighting Feat
Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat
Greater Two Weapon Fighting Feat

And what would be the better off-hand weapon, your Unarmed Strike, or your Armor Spikes?

With haste, or without?

On a full attack, you could:

1. Option 1
   • Unarmed Strike: +14 / +9 / +4 / -1 1d3+X 20/x2 Bludgeon
   • Armor Spikes: +14 / +9 / +4 1d6+.5X 20/x2 Piercing
   • Claw 1: +14 XdX+.5X 20/x2 Slashing / Piercing
   • Claw 2: +14 XdX+.5X 20/x2 Slashing / Piercing
   • Bite: +14 XdX+.5X 20/x2 Slashing / Piercing / Bludgeoning
2. Option 2
   • Armor Spikes: +14 / +9 / +4 / -1 1d6+X 20/x2 Piercing
   • Unarmed Strike: +14 / +9 / +4 1d3+.5X 20/x2 Bludgeon
   • Claw 1: +14 XdX+.5X 20/x2 Slashing / Piercing
   • Claw 2: +14 XdX+.5X 20/x2 Slashing / Piercing
   • Bite: +14 XdX+.5X 20/x2 Slashing / Piercing / Bludgeoning

EDIT:

Rationale:

Both armor spikes and unarmed strikes are light weapons, and so the penalty to AB due to off-hand weapon weight doesn't change.

Multiattack only changes the AB penalty of your secondary natural weapons; it doesn't affect the Strength bonus to damage.

Natural weapon attacks are made at your highest BAB, irrespective of what you're doing with your manufactured weapons. Accordingly, the penalties for TWF do not affect the natural weapons.

 

[dcollins]

As I said in the Warforged slam thread: Personally I rule "no" on this issue. It's not explicit one way or the other in official rules or FAQ. However, my sense of the intent is that you've got one "off-hand" opportunity to potentially add one attack. If your left hand is being used for a second weapon, shield, punching, etc., that's the end of it -- your concentration is entirely taken up and no more attacks can normally be added. There are no WOTC examples in any book anywhere of being able to add more than the one single attack.

In this example: Unarmed strike is the primary attack, so one claw is unusable. Armor spike is your one off-hand attack, so the other claw is unusable. That does leave the bite attack as #3.

 

[IcyCool]

Partyn, where are you getting the fourth off hand attack from? Did I miss something?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Partyn, where are you getting the fourth off hand attack from? Did I miss something?

Sorry - I thought you had all the TWF feats. I'll just delete the last off-hand on each combination.