unarmored tank-type?

[loki8481]

so, my friend is starting up a game next week... it's a Wheel of Time RPG / classic D&D hybrid (half the group is from the WoT world, the other half is from a D&D world... I believe the DM is going to somehow transport the WoT people onto the D&D world).

I've decided on playing an algai'd'siswai, which is basically like an unarmored fighter (in fact, according to the WoT rules, they get no XP while wearing armor or using swords). almost like a monk, except they wield a shortspear/dagger, don't have supernatural abilities, but do have some neat class abilities and awesome initiative bonuses. I'm likely going to multi-class it with fighter for the extra feats (plus same BAB/HP progression).

I'm trying to not make him into the typical rush into battle weaving carnage and wading through blood fighter, though, which had me thinking about a more defense-oriented build... do you think it could work? I'd focus on DEX/CON over other stats and the defensive combat feats like dodge, two weapon defense, combat expertise, and the like, more focused on keeping the big bads from reaching my caster allies while avoiding attacks.

will the lack of armor make this concept totally impossible, though? and are there other classes that anyone could suggest multiclassing into that would meld better with the idea that I've got?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

1) Personally, I'd go for a Dex/Str build:

==> Dex for such a PC does multiple duty- it gets you ranged attack bonuses, improves your initiative and Ref rolls, and # of AoOs- all of which can shorten combat- and boosts your AC, which keeps you alive. AC is a non-ablative resource- it works against every combat roll made against your PC.

==> Str boosts encumbrance (which increases your options) melee attack & most damage rolls, which both shorten combat.

==> In contrast, Con boosts Fort rolls and HP. While having more HP is inarguably good, they are an ablative resource. Once they're gone, they're gone until they're replenished.

2) I'm a big fan of Dex-based PCs venturing into the Combat Reflexes feat chain- Deft Opportunist, Stand Still and Hold the Line are a nice and effective combo of feats that let you control a fair amount of space. Its more effective if you use a reach weapon, of course, but- assuming your PC can't use a longer spear and be faithful to the source material- you can't have everything.

3) The Kensai PrCl (CompWar) probably fits very well thematically with the base class you've chosen, and it has a nice bundle of abilities for such a PC.

4) I don't know the WoT setting well enough, but you might find some help in the Monk Database- see my sig.

 

[green slime]

Using the WoT supplement, you don't really have to worry about armour. The Wheel of Time D20 system has a Defensive bonus system to make up for the lack of magical armours. Your primary class, the algai'd'siswai, has the best defensive bonus in the game. My suggestion, is that you then do not take more than four levels of fighter over your career. Or stick with algai'd'siswai.

 

[FEADIN]

You can take a look at the Sohei from Oriental adventure, a kind of fighting monk with some spells at high level.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I like the Sohei- especially after the 3.5 update. Structurally, the rewrite is a lot like the 3.5 Paladin, and the update improves the Ki Frenzy ability...kind of a FoB mixed with Rage.

 

[kitsune9]

so, my friend is starting up a game next week... it's a Wheel of Time RPG / classic D&D hybrid (half the group is from the WoT world, the other half is from a D&D world... I believe the DM is going to somehow transport the WoT people onto the D&D world).

I've decided on playing an algai'd'siswai, which is basically like an unarmored fighter (in fact, according to the WoT rules, they get no XP while wearing armor or using swords). almost like a monk, except they wield a shortspear/dagger, don't have supernatural abilities, but do have some neat class abilities and awesome initiative bonuses. I'm likely going to multi-class it with fighter for the extra feats (plus same BAB/HP progression).

I'm trying to not make him into the typical rush into battle weaving carnage and wading through blood fighter, though, which had me thinking about a more defense-oriented build... do you think it could work? I'd focus on DEX/CON over other stats and the defensive combat feats like dodge, two weapon defense, combat expertise, and the like, more focused on keeping the big bads from reaching my caster allies while avoiding attacks.

will the lack of armor make this concept totally impossible, though? and are there other classes that anyone could suggest multiclassing into that would meld better with the idea that I've got?

Your best shot is to max out your Dex, get magic items like bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, etc. and feats like Combat Expertise (make sure your Int is at least 13). Get Dodge and Mobility too.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I can't believe I missed a chance to mention bracers and amulets of natural armor in this discussion!

 

[roguerouge]

Qualify for the Dervish prestige class, which fits thematically, and is a powerful fighter PrC with the ability to move and do full attacks in the same round. If you're going defense, the prereq feats of Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise won't hurt so bad, and the increased speed and free spring attack should help too.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

There's a lot of options for unarmored tank. Monk, duelist, and many other classes. Swashbuckler has the arcane tricks or whatever it's called variant in C. Mage to get spell like abilities instead of Grace. You can use that to get Blur a few times per day. Really, playing an arcanist with mage armor and spells to get a % miss chance works quite well, too.

For a specific build, the one i've grown quite fond of lately is whisper gnome (from Races of Stone, or any gnome, if you prefer) Swordsage with Desert Wind Dodge (both Tome of Battle) and Titan Fighting (RoS) feats. BAMF! Now against anything size medium or larger, you get +4 dodge to AC any round you move at least 10 ft. With a potion of reduce person, you can get it against small creatures, too. It works well for straight swordsage, swordsage with a rogue dip (or vice versa*), or some mix of swordsage and scout, to synergize with skirmish.

*I recommend Martial Rogue 4 for bonus feats if dipping rogue. If dipping Swordsage, the "magic levels" are typically ECL 9-10, but that's kinda late to get Desert Wind Dodge and Titan Fighting, so maybe take Swordsage 1 at level 1 or 3. Alternatively, spend another feat to learn a desert wind maneuver, but I personally hate having to spend even more feats. Also, that option wouldn't be available until ECL 2 with no swordsage levels.


Some other tidbits worth mentioning:
Defending weapons
Cautious trait.
Deadly Defense (C. Scoundrel, I think) so when fighting defensively you deal +1d6 damage.
I don't allow it, but arguably by RAW, a monk's belt not only gives a non-monk +1 AC as a level 5 monk, but also +wis mod...
Eternal Wands (Magic Item Compendium): Can be used by any arcanist, even if you don't have the spell on your list, and have 2 renewable charges/day, instead of 50 whenever. Many unarmored tank builds will give you a low arcane CL or UMD as a class skill. Barring that, yay friendly party members! Use these to get mage armor / greater mage armor. Especially for mage armor, it is FAR more cost-effective than getting bracers of armor.

 

[Thanael]

How's your INT?

Check out the good old Duelist PrC. All it's abilities apply to a shortspear as well as to the more typical rapier. Duelist 1 gives you Canny Defense (INT bonus to AC capped by you level in duelist and when not wearing armor or using a shield). Duelist 7 boosts your AC by a lot again. Also the duelist gets some precision dmaage bonus , Reflex save boost and inititive boost.

Check out iwatt's Varadis Telamon (a low-magic-world fencing master, with a great background story) for great example of a duelist.

I've been thinking about different kinds of duelist builds recently. Swashbuckler from CW (1, 3 or more levels) is very good together with Duelist. Swashbuckler 3 gives you INT to damage in addition to STR. Add in a few Rogue levels or perhaps Scout with the Riposte alternate class feature. Fighter dipping for feats is an alternate option to the swashbuckler. (You need a roguish class dip for the required skills of duelist.)