D&D 5E (2024) Unconfirmed Dark Sun World Book

[SableWyvern]

Dark Sun without PC defiling isn't the same thing as Dark Sun without defiling. It's just the assumption that your characters will be heroic - defilers are for slaying.

But if you have rules for defiling then people can use them. The author can't prevent their use by PCs.

If that logic extends to Dark Sun, it would be consistent if they just excluded defilers and slave-built Bastions as PC options and left defilers and slavers you could fight, but none you could play as.

How is WotC going to stop people from playing them? This is the thing I'm saying they literally can't do.

If you don't want PCs to be doing Clearly Evil Villain Stuff on the regular, you shouldn't make the rules for doing Clearly Evil Villain Stuff -- waste of time & space & design resources.

This position really makes no sense at all to me. Rules for Clearly Evil Villain Stuff are only a waste of time and space if you don't want anyone in the game using those rules, including villains. Lots of RPGs rulebooks are full of things not intended primarily or at all for PCs.

But look, I don't see any point in arguing further. I've made my position clear, and I doubt you're going to change yours. I'm also not a potential customer for WotC, so while I might share my opinion for the sake of discussion, in this specific context it barely matters.

 

[Scribe]

My copy says this:

Weak language does not change the fact you can create an Evil PC, right now, with nothing but the 5.5 PHB. Not just 'I'm an edge lord' but mystically, universally, capital E, Evil.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But if you have rules for defiling then people can use them. The author can't prevent their use by PCs.

How is WotC going to stop people from playing them? This is the thing I'm saying they literally can't do.

Bogeyman. The Fun Police aren't coming for your game, and this doesn't change the fact that WotC's design choices do set expectations for millions of tables.

Weak language does not change the fact you can create an Evil PC, right now, with nothing but the 5.5 PHB. Not just 'I'm an edge lord' but mystically, universally, capital E, Evil.

"Weak" or not, the expectation set by that language is very clear. The Fun Police aren't coming for your game, and the rules encourage heroic characters.

I think, in Dark Sun, the rules should not exclusively encourage heroic characters -- I think that misses something about the tone and the fun conflicts you can have in Dark Sun.

 

[Mecheon]

I think, in Dark Sun, the rules should not exclusively encourage heroic characters -- I think that misses something about the tone and the fun conflicts you can have in Dark Sun.

Based on the novels, Dark Sun absolutely wants you making heroic characters fighting up against the oppression in the world, toppling the Sorcerer Kings, and making a better world

That's a lot of the base Dark Sun stuff

 

[SableWyvern]

Based on the novels, Dark Sun absolutely wants you making heroic characters fighting up against the oppression in the world, toppling the Sorcerer Kings, and making a better world

That's a lot of the base Dark Sun stuff

I've been arguing people can do what they want with it, but I strongly believe Dark Sun is a great setting for heroic PCs and a pretty mediocre one for evil, cruel and/or selfish ones.

Being evil in Dark Sun is easy. Answering the call and striving to make the world a better place? Being the difference you want to see? Resisting the easy way, the simple, pragmatic rationalisations you can make to justify whatever you want? That means something.

 

[Mecheon]

Also from memory, while there were rules for becoming a Dragon in Dark Sun.... You weren't realistically going to use them. To say they're player unfriendly is a bit of an understatement.

Mind, 'rules that were meant to be read rather than played' was the flavour at the time (hi white wolf)

 

[Zardnaar]

You can write a rule saying it isn't allowed to be done, but you can't actually stop if from happening. As far as I'm concerned, completely unenforceable strictures about how a game is allowed to be played don't belong in RPG rulebooks. Individuals will do what they want with the rules and the authors have no means to control how their game is used.

If you want people to treat Dark Sun as a game where you fight against evil rather than promoting it (which, as far as I'm concerned, is the whole point of Dark Sun and what makes it worth playing, so I do think playing good guys should absolutely be encouraged and the default assumption), then you do so by showing people how to run a compelling game where the PCs fight against evil, not by telling the reader EVIL PCs AND EVIL BEHAVIOUR ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT ALLOWED.

Evil

Also from memory, while there were rules for becoming a Dragon in Dark Sun.... You weren't realistically going to use them. To say they're player unfriendly is a bit of an understatement.

Mind, 'rules that were meant to be read rather than played' was the flavour at the time (hi white wolf)

Back in the day o think we did a survey at athas.org.

No one or maybe 1 had played a dragon.

Similar story immortal rules of BECMI.

 

[Kurotowa]

Mind, 'rules that were meant to be read rather than played' was the flavour at the time (hi white wolf)

Half that, half "Everything has to have rules, none of that handwavey DM fiat stuff". Like how in 3e monsters treated their creature type like a PC class and had to advance by Hit Dice along a fixed progression track. That was definitely the dominant design philosophy for a while there.

 

[TwoSix]

Being evil in Dark Sun is easy. Answering the call and striving to make the world a better place? Being the difference you want to see? Resisting the easy way, the simple, pragmatic rationalisations you can make to justify whatever you want? That means something.

Which is why my general opinion on defiling is that should an option for any arcane-using PC to access at any time. Defiling should be easy and powerful.

I ran a few session of Dark Sun using Worlds without Number; I had defiling as the default for any high-magic spell. Not defiling required a check, a failed check either defiled or inflicted Stress on the caster. Defiled spells also had stronger effects (more damage, targets, range, etc.) depending on the amount of environmental damage done.

Mages could take "Preserver's Gift" as a class Art, making the check no longer required, but defiling spells were still more powerful.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Which is why my general opinion on defiling is that should an option for any arcane-using PC to access at any time. Defiling should be easy and powerful.

Based on the novels, Dark Sun absolutely wants you making heroic characters fighting up against the oppression in the world, toppling the Sorcerer Kings, and making a better world

These two things are in tension with each other.

If Dark Sun is really about embodying a heroic character who doesn't do the Clearly Evil Villain Stuff, then we don't need player-facing rules for defiling. PC's are exceptional, every PC spellcaster is a preserver, because defiling is Clearly Evil Villain Stuff and PCs are meant to be heroes. Defiling isn't something heroes do -- it's Clearly Evil Villain Stuff. NPC's can defile, and it's the PC's job to stop them.

If Dark Sun is in part about fighting against the lure of how easy and effective the Clearly Evil Villain Stuff is, then there's room for defiling PC's, at least as a kind of fail state for those who succumb to the lure of the Clearly Evil Villain Stuff. That's an appealing conflict, but harder to make a game for if your audience is millions of people, including a lot of kids. Not impossible, but challenging, because the possibility of BEING an evil villain (even as a fail state) means including the possibility of your magical elf fantasy game characters doing nasty things, which isn't something every table is able to handle.