Undead advancement, WTF?

[Li Shenron]

Keep in mind that undead need 6+ HD to qualify for Imp. Toughness, unless they're templated fighters or similar. I think bane thralls and skarlocks are both 5 or less, though.

I kind of hope that when you are designing a new monster or modifying an existing one, you are entitled to just give it bonus feats even if it doesn't meet the prerequisites...

 

[Majere]

I kind of hope that when you are designing a new monster or modifying an existing one, you are entitled to just give it bonus feats even if it doesn't meet the prerequisites...

Your on thin ice if you start giving 1HD creatures improved critical.
CRs are done on the basis that creature face the same feat restrictions as PC's.
If you start giving monsters feats they dont qualifiy will you be giving them all Greater weapon specialization, spring attack (dont need the rest of the feat chain apparently) and so on ? Give them all Greater two weapon fighting at the same time, sure they only have 3dex but it cant be that imbalancing can it ?

Majere

 

[Li Shenron]

If you start giving monsters feats they dont qualifiy will you be giving them all Greater weapon specialization, spring attack (dont need the rest of the feat chain apparently) and so on ?

Who said you should give them any feat? For a feat like Improved Toughness there's no problem giving it without the min Fort save. Actually it's the feat which should have been designed better since the ones who qualify are the ones who would need it less.

Incidentally, very many animals in the MM IIRC have Weapon Finesse without having BAB 1+, and some designer mentioned that it's feat which should be changed.

If a you are bothered by the fact that it's a feat, you can give those extra HP as a monster trait or feature and no one can complain about it.

I have a hard time imagining a DM crying at his desk because he cannot give extra HP to a monster :\

 

[Plane Sailing]

Give all the undead 12hp per hit die. That will make them memorably tough without giving them mondo new capabilities like advancing them does.

They remain pretty much appropriate for their CR in terms of threat but live longer.

 

[darthkilmor]

Give all the undead 12hp per hit die. That will make them memorably tough without giving them mondo new capabilities like advancing them does.

They remain pretty much appropriate for their CR in terms of threat but live longer.

I second the motion. I've done that before, just gave them max HP and up'd the CR by one.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Instead of giving undead 50% hp, I give them 75% or 85% for tougher combatants. For the BBEG, I'll sometimes give 100% hp.

I'd rather have fewer undead with more hp, than more undead with less hp.

 

[Hawken]

Are undead just supposed to be mooks for the party to fight?

Not at all. If you are looking for a good source to use for uping the undead you are using without making them over-powered, you can use the Van Richten's Guide to Walking Dead. It is one of the 3rd edition Ravenloft supplements from Sword and Sorcery. That source offers a wide variety of powers and abilities you can give undead, as well as a modifier to the creature's CR for each of the powers you give them. You can change HD or HP as you wish, but if you are looking to make the encounter something out of the ordinary without necessarily wiping the party out or making the monsters too powerful, its a great place to start.

 

[Voadam]

an insane damage capability with mediocre hitpoints.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Isn't the damage capability the same?

 

[devilish]

Libris Mortis for all your undead needs

Highly recommend this -- as people have mentioned, there
are classes that can enable better undead, but they
also have a section on undead tactics and enhancements.
So, zombies f'rinstance, can add +1 CR and be able to
run like in new Dawn of Dead -- or spread diseases, or
have "brainz!" addiction, etc.
Skeletons can explode (and one exploding skeleton causes nearby ones to
explode), be hardier, etc -- and they give
challenge ratings for that as well.

With Lord Morte's recommendation, have them swarmed by
crazed empowered zombies and that'll scare the ?!?! out of them.

 

[DanMcS]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Isn't the damage capability the same?

If you advance them enough that their size goes up, they end up with a strength increase and a damage die increase from being larger.