Undead advancement, WTF?

[Caspian Marqine]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Isn't the damage capability the same?

Blah, sorry, bad english in that case, I mean damage output vs HP.


As an example. The Thrall Lieutenant I upgraded with 2 levels of undead advancement and made Large had a 24 strength initially and with an attack bonus of 7 did 3D6+10 damage, and 38 HP with an AC of 18, not bad, when considering the Ogrun, But... would just about mush anyone else.

The other one, which I'll leave a bit more secret as there is a player of mine who's on these boards, is not bad, stats are about right for the one on one combat, except in this case a huge amount of HP and a decent AC (I'm supposing 22 at level 3 is not too shabby). My worry is that particular PC has a crappy AC, so I'm instituting the defence roll thing next session and seeing how that goes.



Jonathan

 

[Scion]

As an example. The Thrall Lieutenant I upgraded with 2 levels of undead advancement and made Large had a 24 strength initially and with an attack bonus of 7 did 3D6+10 damage, and 38 HP with an AC of 18, not bad, when considering the Ogrun, But... would just about mush anyone else.

Any chance you could run through your creation process here? From beginning creature to final product.

I would like to see what your process of making into the undead thrall lieutenant was

 

[Caspian Marqine]

Hey sure

I took 1 Thrall Lieutenant, stats either from the Monsternomicon or any of the Witchfire books

Added 2 levels of undead and 4 points into strength and made it large, which gave it another 8 points of strength

Then gave it a large greataxe.

That about sums it up mathematically.



Jonathan

 

[Scion]

As I have none of those books what is its initial CR? Is it undead already? Why did you give it an extra +4 str out of the blue?

Also, what did you give it as a final CR? Upping by 2hd is +1/2 CR and increasing size is another +1 CR, the extra +4 str should round out the 1/2 CR so a total mod of about +2 CR. If it started out correctly CRed to begin with it might've just wound up having a CR too high.

With 38 hp and AC 18 its total CR cant really be much higher than 4 anyway without some really good stats and other abilities. Assuming no bonuses from feats or spells that means it is about 6 hd. With 6hd and no turn resistance then it will be possible for a 4th level cleric to turn it, at which point the battle is effectively over

Ahh well, people useing books I dont have, bah Makes it really difficult to help figure out what is up and whether the CR is correct or not.

 

[Caspian Marqine]

Hmm, as to why the +4 strength, basically I constructed this out of the template I had my "other" surprise for, it had a 16 strength so I worked with it.

CR for a lieutenant is 1, they have +2 turn resistance. I dunno what to do with the turn mechanic in my game, may just reduce it to a will save. ya its about CR4, party right now will level up and be at level 3 before all of these fights.

Ya, I've been leaving out the CR mechanic because I'm mostly comparing these stats to the target's stats and working out a rough comparison, but ya, you put up a good point, I have to figure out Xp rewards later


Jonathan

 

[taliesin15]

several in this thread posted contributions like this one:

Ogrork the Mighty writes:
Instead of giving undead 50% hp, I give them 75% or 85% for tougher combatants. For the BBEG, I'll sometimes give 100% hp.
I'd rather have fewer undead with more hp, than more undead with less hp.

*why not undead whose strength automatically matches the strength of the party its facing in the first place? In the section on Turning Undead (PHB) the text posits the theory that the undead is turned (or rebuked, destroyed, etc) by "positive energy" and can be bolstered by "negative energy" issuing from an evil cleric--if Undead interact with energy levels already, how large of a leap is it that they might respond with more vigour by a more challenging foe?

*also: I've had fun this week populating a dungeon I'm designing for a party of 1st level characters with, among other things, undead reduced to 1HD monsters--I rationalize that because they are not full-strength vampires, wights, etc., that their powers aren't quite full--thus, some easier saving throws