Under Siege Update- How much does a commoner eat per day?

[painandgreed]

Well, while medieval Europe didn't have many cities that large, there are plenty of examples of cities with equal tech or even lower sustaining more than that. Still, we're not in medieval Europe, we're in a fantasy world. If you can have a world with wizards and dragons, I don't think it will suspend disbelief much more to have large cities. In most typical fantasy worlds, disease and injury don't nearly present the problems they did in RL. Hell, currently this thread is serious considering feeding this large number all via magic. IMC, with access to actual divine wisdom, I figure they know about things like germ theory, nutrician, first aid, so that the general life span of the average person is much longer than it was in RL. Plus, I imagine that the reasons for smaller cities in RL were more complicated than they couldn't feed them all. Plus, IIRC, I think the 200,000 estimate is not only the cities inhabitants but also all the people from the surrounding countryside that are acting as refugees. If we consider the majority of these to be rural inhabitants, then the size of the city is much smaller.

 

[arscott]

Plus, IIRC, I think the 200,000 estimate is not only the cities inhabitants but also all the people from the surrounding countryside that are acting as refugees. If we consider the majority of these to be rural inhabitants, then the size of the city is much smaller.

Exactly. I'm saying the city is so much smaller that it would be impossible to resist a seige for more than a day or so, if that.

 

[Hand of Evil]

How much storage was in place? I would do a rule of thumb not having any real world data - cities would have at least 30 days of food in reserve just for winter for its normal population, now how much did the population jump? If 50% increase, from 100,000 to 200,000, that reserve just dropped to 15 days! You could drag it out by 1/2 rations back to 30 days.

A person can go a long time without food, water is about seven days and that is pushing it.

The point is, can the sieging army hold out as long as the seiged city? A fast, light force outside the city that creates problems with the supply train can cause the same problems for the army that are being seen in the city!

 

[NewJeffCT]

Exactly. I'm saying the city is so much smaller that it would be impossible to resist a seige for more than a day or so, if that.

Well, it depends on the original size of the city. I believe it was normal in Medieval times for the folks in the countryside to retreat to the relative safety of the city walls when invaded. The city should take into account their stock of supplies for the population of the surrounding area.

However, the original poster said 200,000 refugees, which implies that they were coming fro outside the normal region of the fortress. Meaning, a 1 or 2 year supply of food & water for 500,000 becomes 40% less with an additional 200,000 refugees.

 

[Piratecat]

A siege is where a druid really comes into his own. By manipulating weather to destroy the enemy's supply lines, they can break a siege just by making the beseiging army cold and hungry.

 

[sword-dancer]

Well before the middle-ages, the city of Rome had 1,000,000 people at its height, IIRC...

Banshee

And the food come from thelatifundies of Sicily, and from North Africa andEgypt.

 

[NewJeffCTHome]

HAWN-joh, with the j pronounced like in bonjour, IIRC

I had always pronounced it Hung Joe

 

[Al]

Your only realistic bet is to break the siege. Even today, with modern logistics and transportation, 200,000 refugees arriving in one area is a major humanitarian problem. In the Middle Ages, you can safely say that the vast majority of them are dead.

As for sieges themselves, I'm skeptical about the "go for the walls tactic". For one, Disintegrate requires an 11th level caster (not many of those) and the range of the Ray means that they're dangerously close to enemy archers and defensive spellcasters (Disintegrate has medium range; Fireball has long range) and most of the counter-measures can be executed at much lower level (See Invisibility at 3rd, Fireball or Lightning Bolt at 5th). In any case, these can be countered with the lower level Wall of Stone, which simply fills in the gap left, or Wall of Force (though WoF is a more temporary solution) Teleport-raids are a good option for the besieging power, but only briefly, since the city could get conventional troops there at a far greater rate. Personally, I see a high-magic besieging army as using tactics of aerial bombardment: Fly is a relatively low-level spell and can be put in wands, and the same with Fireball. There is serious potential for incendiary attacks, particularly since most medieval houses would be made of wood, and streets tending to be very narrow. Alternately, "granary rushes" can be particuarly painful: teleport in and burn down food stores.

 

[taliesin15]

One other city which got pretty large in the Middle Ages I never see mentioned at all is Constantinople (nee Byzantium), almost like it never existed at all...

I must say that breaking the siege isn't entirely necessary--with Divine Casters who can Create Food and Water or Purify Food and Water (again, my Second Harvest option--even a city under siege never needs to go without--people have seen the film Waterworld, right?), I just don't see too huge a problem...plus if its a long siege, wouldn't Divine casters start training low level commoners in some levels of Adept (or Cleric or Druid)?

All irregardless of offensive/defensive capabilities of whatever spellcasters are there...

 

[Fieari]

I'd be assuming that it takes more than a few days to train a farmer up to even a level 1 cleric or wizard or druid or whatever. And even then, how many would actually be capable of learning? Willing to learn? There are bound to be more social issues lying around too... if solving the food problem is as easy as training more clerics/wizards/whatever, why were these 200k refugees farmers in the first place? Perhaps the god in question doesn't want to give everyone spellcasting abilities. What if the god in question CAN'T given everyone spellcasting abilities, and that sort of thing is limited? (Granted, I don't think that's an issue in the core rules, but we aren't talking about a hypothetical game, we're talking about a SPECIFIC game, and house rules can change a lot)

You'd need a whole third of the population to be a cleric to support a seige. For 500k people, that's 166k clerics. On SHORT NOTICE. No, I don't think that's going to fly. I don't think we can assume teaching the masses will work. There's got to be some reason why they aren't already clerics, afterall. By your assumption, no one would farm: every head of the household would pick up a level of cleric to feed himself, his wife, and a kid without ever having to do a lick of work more than praying. I -DON'T- think many DM's would make a society like this, and I esspecially don't think that THIS DM will. Because he set up a seige, you see. And so the DM, as DMs do, is going to make things INTERESTING. Or in other words, CHALLENGING.

I really think that we need to know what our resources are before we can start suggesting administrative plans. Obviously, the PCs, as adventurers, are going to need to break the seige and do so serious butt kicking, but while they're doing that, how are things going to manage back home... I know -my- group loves handling that sort of thing.

So!

City of Mages! How MANY mages? Average level? Max level?
How many clerics? Average level? Max level? What deity/deities?
How many mages are currently employed fending off direct assaults?
How many clerics are currently employed fending off direct assaults?
Any druids? Bards? Rangers? How many? Average level? Max level?

Also, what is the party composition?

Personally, I'd shy away from the really -easy- solutions, because they aren't as interesting and if your DM is anything like me or the DMs I've had, will be rejected anyway simply because the solutions are too easy.

With regards to new custom items, remember that it's assumed that you aren't just taking gold and turning that gold directly into an item, but that you're purchasing sundry items not listed in the book whose aggregate total is the gp value you see. In a seige, certain items may not be available, or not available in high enough quantities.