Under vs. Over estimating Party Power...

What are their stats? The usual 32 point buy? High ability scores make a big difference in 3e. What kind of encounters are you using? A wandering monster is just a speedbump for players, but a prepared force should be able to kill anything using the terrain and traps to their advantage. Kobolds killing off 15th level players aren't a gamer legend, just great planning and excelent tactics. Play smart monsters as such. Are you putting much time into the game? At lower levels its pretty easy to come up with challenging games on the fly buy aty higher levels sometimes you have to rack the brain for devious plans and traps to challange your players. Taking some time to plan out an ultimate death trap is worth it.

Other than that the other posters are right, start playing to their disadvantages. At 10th level any reoccuring villians should know what size shoe they wear, much less any weakness. 10th level PCs are pretty well known. Villians will plan diabolical schemes to destroy them through their weakness. Another good way to strike them where it hurts is socially. Perhaps the bad guys have gotten together to ruin thier reputation and convince the king to drive them from the kingdom. Players who kill dragons blindfolded get nervous at the Royal Ball when they see their nemesis chatting with the king like they're best friends.
 

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Henry said:
I second the suggestions here, but I must ask a few questions:

1) Do the players play the characters power to the fullest? is the cleric buffing up the party beforehand, or is he swinging melee with the best of 'em?

2) Remember that the cleric DOES have ranged firepower - searing light and flame strike if nothing else.

1) Definitely. The party is fully powered up for many encounters.

2) Also yes. The party cleric uses these to great effect.

As for party wealth, I said consider they have 2 levels below what the DMG says for their level.
 

I play the game for fun, and the tense feeling of not knowing how the fight will end. And I DM that way too.

If you players are running through everything no problem, change it up a bit, up the DC a bit, and incr the damage dealt (who said you had to go by the books...?)

since my players have a lot of AC bonuses, go to touch spells. Or usemonsters that deal secondary damage (like poison or disease).

If all else fails, dont hesitate to put someone together that has the best qualities of everything.

My party right now is a cleric, sorc, rogue/ftr, and duelist/monk/fighter. All about lvl 16. And believe you me- they are hard to challenge- with the cleric and the sorc dealing 25d6 in surprise rounds... not to mention insta-kill spells.

So- I made a cleric/sorc/grafter (necromancy)
Cleric allows him to cast really powerful spells, heal himself, and raise dead. Sorc (to take the class) and the grafter PrC allows him to graft monstrous body parts to himself. So, now they have to deal with a human with the arms of a dragon (unarmed attack if needeD), carrioncrawler tentacles (paralysis), heads of a pyrohydra (evtra attack and breath weapon)...

I had fun with that... and i cant wait to unveil him to the guys...

Already they fought a couple of demons with carrion crawler tentacles, with bat wings and claw of a umber hulk...
 

Some of the CR / EL's are definitely out-of-whack, but I'd caution against raising the power level much more... CR 13 or 14 should be a pretty much top-end encounter for your group. Look at it this way... if the party met THEMSELVES in combat, they'd be an EL-14-ish encounter. (4 level 10's), and all things being equal they'd have a 50/50 chance of success (and very likely to suffer at least one death).

Some things to keep in mind:

1) The party shouldn't be able to rest up between every encounter. If the party is simply going to a dungeon or fortress, fighting an encounter, then retreating to rest --- the bad guys are going to make preparations for them next time, or may actually go after them and hunt them down. For a level 10-ish party, a single EL13 encounter holds a pretty good chance of them emerging victorious (but a high chance of death). But 8 CR-10 encounters over the course of 6 hours is going to be VERY VERY dangerous. They are likely to be seriously depleted in resources after the first encounter.

2) Play your enemies SMART. Look at their feats, and make sure they use them. A CR-12ish melee creature with power attack is likely to have an attack bonus to BURN, and can do insane amounts of damage with a single attack. Also, some of them have feats like Sunder. If they are a magical creature that requires magical weapons to hit, they can break magical weapons of that level of magical bonus or lower, and can often do it without breaking a sweat (check out the Earth Elemental). A magic-user is likely to have spell protections up --- very cheap protections like Shield are VERY effective even at high levels. A caster can also put together a small army in a heartbeat with Summoning spells. Remember - play your NPC's as if they were your own PC, seeking every advantage they can muster. Make sure they are appropriately paranoid. Intelligent monsters aren't going to just rush into battle silently and let themselves be hewn down. Guards will likely set off the alarm first, THEN attack. The evil wizard overlord isn't going to just sit in his study pondering ancient texts when his tower is being attacked. Use the same tricks the PC's use against them.

3) Have the party fight GROUPS of enemies, not just single monsters of high level. Have them work together if they are intelligent creatures. A single 12th level fighter isn't a huge challenge for a party of level 10's. But two 8th level fighters, an 8th level cleric, and an 8th level sorcerer - if they use teamwork --- could be very difficult, and though likely to lose a stand-up battle with your rested, fresh party, they'll definitely be a major risk factor. The two fighters, buffed with Bull's Strength from the cleric (among other things), ganging up on one party member at a time AFTER the sorcerer has opened with an 8d6 fireball and is following up with concentrating Magic Missile fire on the same target the fighters are attacking (while the cleric keeps everyone healed and protected).... assuming the fighters are using their feats to their advantage in the combat, the party is going to be having a fairly tough time. Remember --- in the wild, many animals DO use pack tactics. Wild wolves in the real world know how to flank an enemy. I imagine Wargs have it down to a vicious science.

4) Take advantage of the terrain / environment. A Pyrohydra in open terrain is a pretty easy challenge, but in an confined area (where its lack of mobility and limited attack range aren't such a problem) it can be devastating.

5) Make sure that the monsters are making adequate preparations BEFORE the combat begins. If the monsters are on the offense, they will have

One of the coolest editorials in Dragon magazine (from a very old issue, some time in the mid to late 80's I think) I ever read was entitled "Tucker's Kobolds". I'd recommend looking it up if you own the Dragon Magazine archive on CD-ROM (or if you have a friend who owns it, have him/her look it up and print you out a copy). It's about a DM who had a dungeon full horrible creatures that would turn their pack mules into fire-breathing demons or some such (I can't remember, it's been a while since I read the editorial). Anyway, a HORRIBLE dungeon, but the most horrible beasts of them all were the kobolds.

This was in 1st edition AD&D. The DM had taken SOME liberties with the kobolds I think --- some were casters, for example. But mostly they were plain ol' garden-variety 2-3 hitpoint Kobolds. Lots of them. But they OWNED that level of the dungeon, and they were smart and cunning and very very very nasty. They would shoot at the players through murder holes (think 90% concealment), toss molotov cocktails of flaming oil flasks into the room with the party (area-effect doesn't require a great "to hit" roll), push barracades of flaming debris towards the players with poles... The players learned to fear the kobolds more than the fire-breathing demons. Those pathetic, dime-a-dozen kobolds just SHREDDED the party out of sheer cunning and numbers.

And as this editorial was written by one of the players, it was evident that he LOVED being terrified by those pathetic kobolds. It was a memorable, completely enjoyable experience. A good "bad guy" does that to players. Something to think about....

(Edit: Did a little research - The original editorial was apparently in Dragon issue # 127, and there was an article inspired by that editorial that appeared a few years later in Dragon Magazine # 174, entitled "Defeating More with Less".)
 
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That is the hardest thing to learn as a DM. Just how much can you throw at your PCs so that they will be challenged fairly, with a chance to bite it but a better chance to win. It takes a ton of time to get that. I've been DMing for over 20 years. For the most part it is the same as it has always been. You need to know the power of your PCs and the power of the monsters. You should also IGNORE ELs and CRs as the system is not very good. Look at powers, damage infliction, AC and attacks. For example, a 3E ogre is much more ferocious than his 1 or 2E counterpart. Same with giants and trolls. Look at items you may give the monsters. For example, we have a product with a heavily armored ogre with a ring of jumping. He is nasty. Try to figure his CR.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. Get a friend to play the monsters. Dont change the type of monsters or opponents you are using. Just bring in someone to be the monster player. Dont give that person extra info or secret knowledge. Just let there be one full time person to make strategic choices for the monsters. You will notice that alone will increase the difficulty of the monsters. That way you can see if the problem is, perhaps, you and not the opponents. It is tough to do all the things a DM needs to do and still be strategic with monsters--particularly smart ones.

2. Dont be wowed with the single high CR monster. It is common to say, "OK, my PCs can handle a CR 12 encounter", look through the MM, find a cool CR 12 monster and throw it at them. 4 less powerful monsters will normally be more challenging even though their CR or EL may be the same (though sometimes the opposite is true. For example, 1 troll is the CR equivalent of 8 orcs or perhaps 16 orcs. I know my second level party would take out the orcs but the troll would kill one or two since he is such a bad ass under the new rules with damage and rend; but that is a problem with how CRs are calculated, not a problem with the principle of using 4 mid size rather than 1 large monster). So shelve that CR 12 monster and whip out a few CR 8 monsters. (Note: i am using CRs here because that is how things are listed these days. I dont like it, but that is how it is done).

Here is why you should use more small ones rather than one big one normally: the party can all focus all its resources on the one big monster and it thus will take more damage per round than 4 smaller ones. Plus, the biggie can only attack a smaller number of the PCs at any one time. More monsters harry the other PCs, preventing supportive action.

3. Think strategically. Use traps. Ambushes. Be smart. Not evil or treacherous. Smart. But only when the monsters should be. The D&D world is a brutal world of life by the sword. If the mosnters are alive it is most likely because they have had to kill to stay alive. Play them accordingly.

4. Be careful with spellcasters. NPC spellcasters are a great way to make combat more challenging. But it is a huge burden on you. You will have to be really prepared. Plus, the number of possible outcomes really starts to change. A good DM can really set the odds in his or her mind of the survivability of the encounter. NPC spell casters can really mess that up--even with lower level spells. Entangle, web, silence, etc, all can really mess with a PC party.

The temptation is to up the level of monsters or add spell casters. Think about this instead:

5. Better equipment. By now the PCs have plate armor I am sure. Give some to a group of ogres. Or give the monsters some small access to supporting items: potions of healing from an evil priest or perhaps a ring.

6. Think about support for the PCs. Take them away from their support. If they are always in or near a town they will have access to replacement equipment, safe rest, healing, etc. Take them to places away from that support. You will notice that alone will have a huge impact on their success.

I would strongly suggest trying to use a monster player (item 1 above). See what difference that makes. If none, they try some of these others.

i know where you are coming from. It is fun to have challenge. You dont want the PCs just walking through everything. Hope thses comments help.

Clark
 

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