Undermountain Begins! (And DMGII Tidbit...)

[Arcane Runes Press]

How come what moves you has moved to coincide with 3E design principles?

Because it's a lot more player empowering.

In second edition, most groups I played with used the standard of "These are the abilities the characters have. Challenge them by countering those abilities."

But I much prefer the 3E philosophy of "These are the abilities the characters have. Challenge them by forcing them to use those abilities cleverly."


The first is the Superman school of story design - kryptonite takes Superman's gifts away, and forces him to be clever.

The second, the Batman school - The Joker's cunning forces Batman to use all his gifts cleverly.


To me, the second is much more fun.

Patrick Y.

 

[eris404]

Regardless of whether I'd actually use this feature or not (not familiar with the original, and some of the detail seems a little wonky), I still think it's a great idea and I hope they decide to revisit other modules and/or settings (!) in the future.

BTW, I just noticed on that giant map that it says Level 1. There's more than one level to this place!

 

[IronWolf]

If you can give me a rough idea of how a PC might go about accomplishing the same thing, I've got no problem at all.

The article mentions a new spell which will be in 'City of Splendors: Waterdeep' named Teleport Cage.

Not picking on Mercule here, as several have mentioned that they don't like the heavy handedness of Halaster's influences in Undermountain. But even in the article posted on Wizards site they say this:

In past products, Halaster's influence provided an explanation for traps resetting, monsters being replaced, and to obstruct the use of certain types of magic. You can use Halaster's powers in a similar manner, but such things can be frustrating to players, so employ such tactics with caution.

So even withing the article itself it says use those affects with caution. It's up to the DM whether they fit in with the type of game he or she runs. Sure the article make suggestions as to what the influences are in Undermountain, but in this case they are there for ideas.

Anyways, with that being said, I am really looking forward to this series. Looks like its time to brush off my boxed set and start re-reading it!

 

[Psion]

I use undermountain in my world, but I notice that some changes I made to fit it into my world make it feel less sloppy to me and address some issues that some people here have with it. Namely, first, my version of undermountain was INTENDED as a prison for supernatural creatures; the idea of proof against magical transit does not bother me if it MAKES SENSE in context. Second, my mad mage didn't make the undermountain all by his lonesome; he stumbled on an ancient prison made by an ancient civilization rife with powerful mages; that suits me better than "a mage went CRAZY and made all this stuff cuz he's CRAZY.".

So in a way, my version of undermountain was a bit more like Banewarrens and WLD in concept, but before d20 ever came to be.

 

[Faraer]

If you can give me a rough idea of how a PC might go about accomplishing the same thing, I've got no problem at all.

The Realms has a vast array of magics: different magical traditions current and past, human and nonhuman, strange sorcerous wild talents, rare magics such as spellfire, pseudo-magics such as the Invisible Art. Any of these *could* have game rules written for them, but it wouldn't be sensible to write up Imaskari magics known by few or none in the modern Realms when there are thousands of spells that *are* relatively available to PCs and NPCs yet to be revealed.

What the advantage would be of excluding from play magical effects that aren't fully documented ruleswise -- the majority of them, including almost all non-adventuring spells -- I can't imagine. Is it 'cheating' to have gods in play without detailed rules for how PCs can become gods, or magically altered geography? That's giving the rules a far more central role in the game than I would ever want, or than they have in Ed Greenwood's roleplaying-over-rules campaigns which are the basis of the Realms (and the opposite, Psion, of 'sloppy').

Maybe if the pages get enough hits they'll give us levels 4–6 and the Dungeon of the Crypt -- let's keep hoping.

I just got Dungeon #121 and learned that after 18 years, the Dungeon of the Crypt is coming! Bravo, Eric and Erik.

 

[Arnwyn]

Always been a big fan of Undermountain, and I'm looking forward to this series of articles.

Nice to see there's at least one place that doesn't fit perfectly with "3E design principles".

If you can give me a rough idea of how a PC might go about accomplishing the same thing, I've got no problem at all.

He did. Wards, dimensional locks/anchors, etc (including the good old gorgon ichor, etc) - some FR books covered magic wards and the like. 3E spells and magic items (especially in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, which pretty much gives all the rules and components to make an "instant Undermountain") make it inmeasurably easier than in 2e.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I'd just put limitations on certain areas where certain types of magic (e.g. teleportation) don't work. I wouldn't make it the whole dungeon though. Create "safe" rooms where the PCs can teleport to. This can also lead to some interesting encounters since the "safe" rooms would likely see a lot of travel from other adventurers (and anyone else who had such ability).

I don't find anything particularly redeeming about PCs scrying, teleporting in, and killing the BBEG before he knows what hit him. To me, that's just as bad as having an entire dungeon spell-proofed...

 

[fredramsey]

Ooh, now THAT's showing your age...

In the yeeeear.. 2525
Halaster is still alive
And if the party can survive
they may find

In the year 3535
Ain't gonna need to spring no trap
kill no monster
Everything you loot, smash and slay
Was what halaster put there today

Now it's been 10,000 years
The party's looted Laeral's tears
But what they never knew
is that Halaster is not through
But through the teleporters
The next crop of critters do reconnoiter
The exit's so far away
Wish I'd left here yesterday...

 

[John Morrow]

Create "safe" rooms where the PCs can teleport to. This can also lead to some interesting encounters since the "safe" rooms would likely see a lot of travel from other adventurers (and anyone else who had such ability).

Well, the "safe" rooms, if widely known, would probably become "ambush" rooms. This causes the same sorts of problems that "jump points" create in science fiction settings.

I don't find anything particularly redeeming about PCs scrying, teleporting in, and killing the BBEG before he knows what hit him. To me, that's just as bad as having an entire dungeon spell-proofed...

What I'm finding, as my players start to peek over 10th level, is that where there is a will, there usually is a way that a sufficiently powerful BBEG can figure out to thwart a quick-and-dirty ambush, especially if money and time are not limiting factors. I've tryied to take the DMG suggestion to not simply deprive the PCs of their abilities to heart and figure out legitimate counters to powerful spell-based tactics and I think my game has been better for it.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Oh, quite. My objection comes from some DMs and designers using handwaving to make things work. If you can give me a rough idea of how a PC might go about accomplishing the same thing, I've got no problem at all.

See the energy transformation and proof against teleportation spells (FR 2e) or the dimensional lock spell (3e). Also keep in mind that Halaster is a 4,000 year-old 30th-level mage with a unique level of mastery over gates... er, portals.

Undermountain suffers from being the first of a long series of published adventures that used various methods to deprive PCs of some of their adventure end-run abilities (teleportation, plane shifting, etc.). Never mind that it was designed that way from its inception (c.1975), or that it really NEEDS to be full of teleport blocks given its setting and purpose (to which One_Warlock alluded). Faerun has innumerable "dungeons" (artificially-constructed danger zones and strongholds) that aren't purpose-built by high-level wizards to vex adventurers.