Undermountain Begins! (And DMGII Tidbit...)

[The_Warlock]

While I have no problem with PCs being allowed to use their abilities, in fact even encouraging them to use their abilities by putting puzzles in front of them that require them to use such abilities, I don't see why a incredibly powerful NPC mage has to be stupid. If you had the power to ward and protect your chosen demense against translocation and alteration magics, would you? Smart PCs put up wards, and dimensional lockss, and other such things, and that's not accounting for epic rules. Why should a NPC mage of fantastic intelligence simply let people run roughshod over his playground? Undermountain is a dungeon crawl which forces you to rethink how you use your abilities, use the tactics of a portal driven dungeon to your advantage. And it's a DM's playground, the weirdest things from a dozen campaign worlds can all exist side by side. And with portals to spare that cross the globe, its can also provide access to places in the world and planes that aren't easily reachable by mundane or even standard magic means.

I don't dispute anyone's preference for a different design, but having run sections of Undermountain before, I do dispute that its badly done, or designed poorly. Like any pre-packaged module, its what you make of it, and how open minded and ingenious you and your players are. I tend to find that the design philosophies of 3.0 (and 3.5 esp) clotheslined many a spell and special ability - put it in its slot, and that was it, rather than having a power with a little bit of gray area so that players and GMs who think and are creative can use their native intelligence to pull off something heroic. How a good player outmaneuvers or outthinks a "blanket obstacle", in my book, makes the heroic moments that much greater. And Undermountain, in my opinion, is a perfect vehicle for that when run well.

Pardon me for my diatribe, but felt the need to express it.

And damn but I love the maps....

EDIT: I agree with both Mystery Man and Dave Mage - that's the other thing - why get irritated, make it what you want if it has anything that interests you. It is FREE after all.

 

[Henry]

If you had the power to ward and protect your chosen demense against translocation and alteration magics, would you? Smart PCs put up wards, and dimensional lockss, and other such things, and that's not accounting for epic rules. Why should a NPC mage of fantastic intelligence simply let people run roughshod over his playground?

It's not necessarily Halaster's playground, but more of his "Laboratory." It's the maze that he sticks in experiments and controls, and sees what happens. The adventurers are the lab rats, lured by the "cheese" of fantastic treasures, and the dungeon and monsters and teleporters, etc. are his obstacles for the mice to overcome.

 

[The_Warlock]

It's not necessarily Halaster's playground, but more of his "Laboratory." It's the maze that he sticks in experiments and controls, and sees what happens. The adventurers are the lab rats, lured by the "cheese" of fantastic treasures, and the dungeon and monsters and teleporters, etc. are his obstacles for the mice to overcome.

ABSOLUTELY! (That's why I ended with playground). I agree wholeheartedly, and if there's one thing you learn in honors science, is you have to control the experiement - no leaks, otherwise you don't have good data...

chuckle

 

[Mystery Man]

While I have no problem with PCs being allowed to use their abilities, in fact even encouraging them to use their abilities by putting puzzles in front of them that require them to use such abilities, I don't see why a incredibly powerful NPC mage has to be stupid. If you had the power to ward and protect your chosen demense against translocation and alteration magics, would you? Smart PCs put up wards, and dimensional lockss, and other such things, and that's not accounting for epic rules. Why should a NPC mage of fantastic intelligence simply let people run roughshod over his playground?

Good point.

 

[johnsemlak]

Any ideas what the purpose behind this Undermountain thing is? Is this a lead up to a certain product? Is it some test of how popular the idea is?

 

[Mercule]

While I have no problem with PCs being allowed to use their abilities, in fact even encouraging them to use their abilities by putting puzzles in front of them that require them to use such abilities, I don't see why a incredibly powerful NPC mage has to be stupid. If you had the power to ward and protect your chosen demense against translocation and alteration magics, would you?

Oh, quite. My objection comes from some DMs and designers using handwaving to make things work. If you can give me a rough idea of how a PC might go about accomplishing the same thing, I've got no problem at all.

I've no knowledge whatsoever of Undermountain (or much about FR), and never intended to imply such. A lot of my ire comes from Dragon Mountain where there were a lot of restrictions that amounted to, "Just because". The thing that convinced me the alterations there went beyond what the dragon could have reasonably done, was when I was told the rule (2E) that allowed fighters to take a bunch of attacks against creatures with less than 1HD was suspended. Yeah, "We're gonna show you that kobolds are scary, but we're changing the rules to do so." That'll show us.

Anyway, like I said, my test (with a broad brush and barring divinities of some stripe) for where that line is crossed is whether a PC could have accomplished the same thing with some level of effort. If not, or if you change basic rules (number of attacks), then it isn't "upping the ante", it's cheating.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Any ideas what the purpose behind this Undermountain thing is? Is this a lead up to a certain product? Is it some test of how popular the idea is?

Well, its a great tie in for the upcoming Waterdeep book. Probably also a good way to get an adventure out there without the problem of it not being bought.

 

[KaosDevice]

I've always had a soft spot in my head for Undermountain. I'm glad to see they are working with it again, I'll probably snag Waterdeep as soon as it drops. The Undermountain stuff has always made a good mix when combined with urban adventuring above ground in the city. One of my fondest 2E memories is an all thief campaign that ran like that bouncing back and forth between gritty city adventures and kicking around Undermountain...good times...good times.

Has anyone printed out the full map to see what it looks like?

 

[Faraer]

Undermountain just doesn't move me anymore. I hope people enjoy it, and I hope it does well for Wizards, but the magical conceits built into the dungeon just smack of non-3E design principles.

How come what moves you has moved to coincide with 3E design principles?

Any ideas what the purpose behind this Undermountain thing is? Is this a lead up to a certain product? Is it some test of how popular the idea is?

Not that we've been told. It's doubtless a tie-in with the forthcoming Waterdeep sourcebook and Ed Greenwood/Elaine Cunningham novel, both called City of Splendors. Maybe if the pages get enough hits they'll give us levels 4–6 and the Dungeon of the Crypt -- let's keep hoping.

 

[The_Warlock]

Oh, quite. My objection comes from some DMs and designers using handwaving to make things work. If you can give me a rough idea of how a PC might go about accomplishing the same thing, I've got no problem at all.

Ah, I see where you are coming from. I never played nor even perused Dragon Mountain. Already had a campaign, and the closest and easiest
dungeon delve for my campaign was Undermountain (which I already had) as they were based in Waterdeep, the city that stands on it. To the best of my knowledge, there was never anything in Undermountain that changed underlying rules; more that there were spells and effects that blocked certain forms of magic (mostly from outside to inside passage or vice versa), made sure to reset triggered traps and locales, and restock the dungeon. And in most every edition there have been spells and effects to counter spells and effects, Undermountain simply applied them on a grand scale that an epic and insane wizard from a lost empire of magic who'd had 1300 years to personalize his dungeon/laboratory/24 hour adventure TV channel would've done.

Everything that was instituted as a barrier was generally well explained, and more or less reasonable given the premise, even if documented spells of the level expected weren't necessarily detailed.

As such, I can agree with your concepts and statements, but can honestly say that I don't recall anything from Undermountain based in that kind of "Because I say so" ruling.