unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp

[bestone]

Lol, do i get a cookie at 350?

Edit ahh, i owe you a cookie.

 

[bestone]

In the case of Sunder, I'm pretty sure that "melee attack" means that you can use it as part of a full attack action. If it were an action demanding a standard action (like bull rush, or overrun) it would say so.

This is a quote i stumbled upon and i can direct you to the source of it, from rich baker, who may be a little more convincing to people than skippy.

 

[bestone]

Ok, on the wizards page, under the game rules

Official D&D Game Rule FAQ

In the main rules downloadable pdf

Is sunder a special standard action or is it a melee
attack variant? It has its own entry on the actions table,
the text describing it refers to it as a melee attack. Is sunder
melee attack only in the sense of hitting something with
melee weapon, or is sunder a true melee attack?
Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special
standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive
text for the Manyshot feat says).
If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks
from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once,
or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking
and sundering.
Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8–2: Actions
in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because
unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of
opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder
feat).
You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack
attack of opportunity).

Mind you, i dont know how valid such things are considered to you people, i just thought it was interesting that every bit of information on the wizards site suggests the same thing, with reasoning why.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... with reasoning why.

And their reasoning is "It's on the table as a standard action because it provokes an AoO".

But so do Disarm and Grapple, and they're not on the table as standard actions; they're on the table as Action Type: Varies, and carry a footnote that specifies they can be used multiple times in a Full Attack action, on a Charge, on an AoO.

The reasoning the FAQ answer gives in support of its conclusion is flawed; I therefore feel no compunction in rejecting that conclusion.

-Hyp.

 

[bestone]

And their reasoning is "It's on the table as a standard action because it provokes an AoO".

But so do Disarm and Grapple, and they're not on the table as standard actions; they're on the table as Action Type: Varies, and carry a footnote that specifies they can be used multiple times in a Full Attack action, on a Charge, on an AoO.

The reasoning the FAQ answer gives in support of its conclusion is flawed; I therefore feel no compunction in rejecting that conclusion.

-Hyp.

Disarm and grapple both function differently than sunder in that a failure means that your opponent can return the attack on you. I could possibly then believe this is why they are listed under the varied action section because its something being taken out of your turn completely if your counter-tripping.

But i also see your argument, they just say because of aoo, and dont state any other factor.

They leave it quite unclear.

I dont believe the reasoning is flawed, i just believe that you are comming to a different conclusion than, say me, and say, the game designers that have stated that. They never stated why disarm and grapple are in the varied section without sunder, but i believe one could logic out why that is.

I can find clear distinction on the working of the three abilities. And i do believe the game designers arguments for why they are listed where they are listed.

 

[bestone]

Im not stating this as any sort of argument, purely a question that i dont know the awnser to

Is the faq not an official source for rules fixes?

It says its official and give fixes to rules, and is written by the same game designers that created the books.

And like i said, this is only a question because i dont know, not to argue anything!

 

[Lackhand]

Only... grapple can be used in a full attack (and I'm assuming here that I understood your argument to be that it couldn't, because I'm disagreeing with both parts of your statement): (from the system reference document, as I don't have my books here)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Meanwhile, you can only sunder as part of a full-round attack if the FAQ (and the point of contention) is correct, which is a bit circular.

the edit!: The FAQ actually isn't the official source for rules fixes -- the errata is the only one which is (this is the primary source rule, I think). And knowing is half the battle

 

[Hypersmurf]

Disarm and grapple both function differently than sunder in that a failure means that your opponent can return the attack on you.

Since when can an opponent counter-grapple?

And just like last time, the 'counter-move' hypothesis doesn't explain why Sunder lacks footnote 7, which has absolutely nothing to do with counter-moves, but everything to do with whether something can be done as an AoO...

-Hyp.

 

[bestone]

I should have specified more clearly, they make opposed grapple checks against you, i kinda cluttered my thoughts into one statement. And they can make a grapple check to break your grapple. If they are making a grapple check on thier turn, and you roll the opposed, you are still using the rules for grapple, but for you its not a standard action (but i realise for them it is, and this is where the rules fall into place for your being able to use them). Sorry

they just function imho, differently enough to be given a varied action

I again see your point, but im simply inclined to agree with the two game designers pov on this, Plus the faq. Not having that footnote doesnt disclude it from being able too, but your right in that nothing explains why its not given it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I should have specified more clearly, they make opposed grapple checks against you

You mean like how the make an opposed check with you when you Sunder?

-Hyp.