unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp

[KarinsDad]

Melee attacks aren't solely found in the Attack action, however.

No. They are also found in Sunder.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You can just quote a reference somewhere that states you must have a standard action free to perform a special attack that requires one, or anything along those lines.

ACTION TYPES
An action's type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are four types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, and free actions.

In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.

Standard Action: A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly make an attack or cast a spell. See Table 8-2: Actions in Combat for other standard actions.

We see Table 8-2 for other standard actions, and find Sunder. The action's type tells us how long the action takes to perform. In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action.

How long does Sunder take to perform? A standard action.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No. They are also found in Sunder.

Exactly!

If I want to make a melee attack on a creature, which actions can I take? Attack (standard), Full Attack (full round), Charge (full round). Or an AoO (not an action).

If I want to use a melee attack to strike a weapon, which actions can I take? Sunder (standard).

Melee attacks are found in multiple places, which include but are not limited to the Attack action. Melee attacks used to strike a weapon are found in one place - the Sunder action.

I totally understand that the table indicates that a Sunder is a Standard Action. It also indicates that Melee Attacks are a Standard Action.

It indicates that the Attack (Melee) action is a standard action, not that a melee attack is a standard action.

-Hyp.

 

[bestone]

How long does Sunder take to perform? A standard action.

-Hyp.

I dont disagree with you on that

How long does a melee attack take to perform? A standard action

Regardless, what i was saying is not anywhere in there

Nowhere does it say that unless you have an action to perform a special attack, does that special attack apply.

If sunder said specifically in the text it can be used as an attack of opportunity, we wouldnt have this argument

And i see it as saying that *not specifically however* when it says you can use a melee attack to sunder.

The fact is, the rules for a special attack tell you how you can use that special attack, can you tell me otherwise?

The time an action takes to perform does not hold sway over what it does, or when it can be used. The text of the action does.

 

[bestone]

And like i've posted, how can you support your claim, when using a supernatural ability is a standard action, but under some text of the supernatural abilities it states they work different. Its still listed as a standard action. And it may not note in the supernatural ability that its any other type of action *thus by default it still remains a standard action* yet some supernatural abilities function by adding to melee attacks, like the aforementioned fang golem, who has a special thing that applies to each melee attack it does.

Or are you saying now that to use that ability it must take the standard action "supernatural ability" which would then affect its attacks *which it'd get none if its already using its standard action

Or even, by your logic

You must use a standard action to use the special ability - sunder

The special ability sunder lets you Use a melee attack to sunder

It doesnt grant you a melee attack, nor do you get a melee attack by default on a standard action

Therefore when using the standard action sunder

You CAN (can meaning having the option to, but not having too) use a melee attack to sunder, but you dont have a melee attack (standard action) to make, if your using a standard action that gives you the option to use a melee attack to do something (sunder).
Which would mean of course, you wont be making any attacks.

If it was written " When you sunder you use a melee attack to......"
then it would be a little harder to argue my part

 

[KarinsDad]

It indicates that the Attack (Melee) action is a standard action, not that a melee attack is a standard action.

When you show me where "Attack (Melee)" is defined in the rules, I'll concede this point.

 

[KarinsDad]

If I want to use a melee attack to strike a weapon, which actions can I take? Sunder (standard).

If I want to use a melee attack to strike a weapon, which actions can I take? Sunder (melee attack).


Sunder is not specified as a Standard action in the Sunder rules text, hence, it is not.

It is specified as a Melee Attack, just like Disarm, Grapple, and Trip.

Tables do not take precedence over rules.

 

[mvincent]

I do not understand how either of these two are on topic.

The mechanics of how these are done within a character's turn says nothing about how they are done outside a character's turn (i.e. within an AoO).

Sundering with iterative attacks and sundering with AoO's would generally be considered the same argument (i.e. treating it as an attack action rather than a standard action).

 

[bestone]

Besides that karin, when you want to take a special attack, the time it takes does not govern whether or not you can use it, nor how you can use it. The rule of the special attack, as written does.

So imho they can only dispute sentence "You can use a melee attack to"

But they have already agreed about what it means, with us

 

[KarinsDad]

Sundering with iterative attacks and sundering with AoO's would generally be considered the same argument (i.e. treating it as an attack action rather than a standard action).

True, but your #7 sentence does not state that.

It states that the bonus is the same. For example, if the bonus was lowered via Power Attack, the same bonus would be used twice with that feat. That does not mean that the Sunder is not a Standard Action. It means that the second attack off the Sunder Cleave has the same bonus as the first. It states nothing about iterative attacks or AoOs.

Just like the AC statement of #8 doesn't state anything about Standard Action versus Melee Attack.