Unhappy Pally - Righteous Rage + Vicious Weapon
SamusekTDS
First Post
yeah - i guess i'll have to reroll with him... Its too bad because as a DM I liked having that particular player play that class, plus I had some cool Pelor-related stuff planned that will have to be NPCed as there are no other Divine characters in the party.
We have 2x Rogues, a warlock and a warden, so hopefully he goes for a controller for more mass damage balance - 4e battles are still taking WAAAAAY too long.
Though cleric multiclassing might be something i suggest to him.
Are the FR feats/skills/powers designed to be more powerful overall then core? or balanced differently? I dont own any FR stuff so I don't know, but if so that would be a less arbitrary reason not to use any.
We have 2x Rogues, a warlock and a warden, so hopefully he goes for a controller for more mass damage balance - 4e battles are still taking WAAAAAY too long.
Though cleric multiclassing might be something i suggest to him.
Are the FR feats/skills/powers designed to be more powerful overall then core? or balanced differently? I dont own any FR stuff so I don't know, but if so that would be a less arbitrary reason not to use any.
Lord Ernie
First Post
Fighter multi-classed to cleric is a very effective (be sure to pick up warpriest at Paragon) defender, and with the right weapon selection, he'll be doing more damage too. Not more than the rogues, of course.
As for combat taking too long: first off, do the PC's hit often enough at all? With 2 rogues and a warlock, they should be tearing through their enemies at an alarming pace. Second, there were a couple of threads on this board on how to speed up combat, but I don't seem to be able to find them.
Lastly, while there are some more useful feats amongst the Channel Divinity feats in the FRPG (I don't consider that bad - some of the PHB ones just plain suck), they're not really more powerful overall. It's just RroT that goes into ridiculously overpowered levels.
Dr.Cornelius
First Post
RRoT is a bit overpowered, but nowhere near as broken as Battlerager or Rain of Blows or Reckless+Bloodclaw combo or any number of other things. Are the other characters in the party fully optimized? If so, RRoT might not be out of place.
How often does your party encounter undead? Clerics and Paladins are balanced with undead in mind. If you are playing a campaign without significant undead presence, may want to throw the divine types a useful magic item or something to balance it out.
As to Tempus not being in your campaign, don't feel that your hands are tied by specific fluff. 4e specifically encourages DMs to adapt feats, powers, dieties, etc. to their particular world. Keep the crunch, rework the fluff and everyone can be happy.
If the Dragonborn Paladin wants to do more damage, there are a few straightforward ways:
- Upgrade to superior weapon, or even consider a 2H weapon like Fullblade or Heavy Flail
- Fighter Multiclass is primarily for picking up the broken Rain of Blows at 4th level. Alternatie is multiclass to Ranger or Barbarian and spend 4th level on a damage feat. Go Ranger if you want one or two extra d8 per encounter, Barbarian if you want to go nova 1/day. These have added benefit over Fighter of picking up Perception training which is very useful.
How often does your party encounter undead? Clerics and Paladins are balanced with undead in mind. If you are playing a campaign without significant undead presence, may want to throw the divine types a useful magic item or something to balance it out.
As to Tempus not being in your campaign, don't feel that your hands are tied by specific fluff. 4e specifically encourages DMs to adapt feats, powers, dieties, etc. to their particular world. Keep the crunch, rework the fluff and everyone can be happy.
If the Dragonborn Paladin wants to do more damage, there are a few straightforward ways:
- Upgrade to superior weapon, or even consider a 2H weapon like Fullblade or Heavy Flail
- Fighter Multiclass is primarily for picking up the broken Rain of Blows at 4th level. Alternatie is multiclass to Ranger or Barbarian and spend 4th level on a damage feat. Go Ranger if you want one or two extra d8 per encounter, Barbarian if you want to go nova 1/day. These have added benefit over Fighter of picking up Perception training which is very useful.
Wepwawet
Explorer
If you feel RRoT is too powerful, and you want the player to keep Pelor, you could rework that power: call it Righteous Rage of Pelor and make the power do the same thing but only against undead (and maybe some other type). That will make him do big damage once in a while, while keeping the "undead slayer" flavour, typical of Pelor, but adapted to a Paladin (greatweapon cleric)
Also Fighter multiclass can be effective for a strength Paladin, because he can have strength powers at that level where they're all charisma.
And remember that a strength Paladin has no use for a holy symbol.
Also Fighter multiclass can be effective for a strength Paladin, because he can have strength powers at that level where they're all charisma.
And remember that a strength Paladin has no use for a holy symbol.
eamon
Explorer
I'd say: don't screw the player for not knowing how to build an effective 4e character on the first try.
And in any case, what's the point in limiting retooling options? As long as the character is the same, does it really matter?
I'd consider objecting if the character intended to go from strength-paladin to charisma paladin just claiming it were minor retooling, but if it's just a question of a stat point here or there, and a feat here or there - that's just implementation details.
To be sure, the player shouldn't hope to compete with strikers in terms of damage while playing a paladin - that's being unrealistic. He should revel in sustaining the enemies blows and holding back the BBEG, but big damage is a hopeless quest.
Finally, I find the case for Core-only to be much weaker in 4e than in 3.5. I used to run a core+any 1 splat per char campaign in 3.5 and I've gotta say, in 4e "anything goes including dragaon magazine" is way more balanced than core only in 3.5, let alone core+1splat in 3.5. Not that there aren't things I find problematic, but they're few and far between.
And in any case, what's the point in limiting retooling options? As long as the character is the same, does it really matter?
I'd consider objecting if the character intended to go from strength-paladin to charisma paladin just claiming it were minor retooling, but if it's just a question of a stat point here or there, and a feat here or there - that's just implementation details.
To be sure, the player shouldn't hope to compete with strikers in terms of damage while playing a paladin - that's being unrealistic. He should revel in sustaining the enemies blows and holding back the BBEG, but big damage is a hopeless quest.
Finally, I find the case for Core-only to be much weaker in 4e than in 3.5. I used to run a core+any 1 splat per char campaign in 3.5 and I've gotta say, in 4e "anything goes including dragaon magazine" is way more balanced than core only in 3.5, let alone core+1splat in 3.5. Not that there aren't things I find problematic, but they're few and far between.
My first character in 4th was a dragonborn paladin, and he's been my main character for much of the time as well. he's now up to 7th level, and I've loved playing him almost all the time.
I started with Str 18, Cha 15 and Wis 16, and he's now Str 18, Cha 16 Wis 16 (the extra point went into con, for an extra surge, +1HP per surge and +1 damage on breath- I have no regrets so far).
He has mainly Strength based powers, with Charisma powers where they are outstanding. He has multiclassed in warlord, and swapped his 7th level encounter for Lions roar. He currently has a +1 longsword and no holy symbol.
I'd give your player the opportunity to tweak the character to work a bit better, or change to something else. Paladins are hard to manage, but good fun if you get it right. I think he seems to expect a channel divinity feat to be worth taking. He's wrong.
I started with Str 18, Cha 15 and Wis 16, and he's now Str 18, Cha 16 Wis 16 (the extra point went into con, for an extra surge, +1HP per surge and +1 damage on breath- I have no regrets so far).
He has mainly Strength based powers, with Charisma powers where they are outstanding. He has multiclassed in warlord, and swapped his 7th level encounter for Lions roar. He currently has a +1 longsword and no holy symbol.
I'd give your player the opportunity to tweak the character to work a bit better, or change to something else. Paladins are hard to manage, but good fun if you get it right. I think he seems to expect a channel divinity feat to be worth taking. He's wrong.
Obryn
Hero
So, apropos of nothing, is anyone else sold on Crusader's Weapons for Paladins? (And avengers, and battle clerics?)
I mean, it has to be a mace or hammer, but seriously. It's like a Bard's songblades - an all-in-one weapon+implement combo. What's more, the properties are pretty amazing... Free radiant damage whenever I'd like? Yes, please.
-O
I mean, it has to be a mace or hammer, but seriously. It's like a Bard's songblades - an all-in-one weapon+implement combo. What's more, the properties are pretty amazing... Free radiant damage whenever I'd like? Yes, please.
-O
First of all... let him rebuild/swap characters until he's satisfied. This is always good advice. Recreational activities should be fun.
Second... 4th edition paladins are fine, particularly the Dragonborn variety, though I really recommend going CHA then STR, or forsaking STR entirely thanks to the Martial Training feat.
Third... paladins take a few levels to come into their own. By 6th, thanks to Wrath of the Gods --good even if you 'only' have a CHA of 14-- and items like the Iron Armbands of Might (AV, +2 to melee damage, kinda cheesy), you can quickly ramp up their damage potential to Striker territory.
Even something simple like a Bloodclaw weapon (AV again, take enhancement bonus in damage for 2X enhancement bonus extra damage) can make a big difference.
Under optimal conditions --ie, while Bloodied, using a Bloodclaw battle axe, and under the effect of Wrath of the Gods-- my Dragonborn paladin does 1d10+19 w/his at-will.
Fourth... having to split your item budget between a weapon and an implement is a problem. We allow paladins to use their weapons as implements.
Fifth... throw some undead at the paladin. Being able to generate Radiant damage (w/a weapon attack) against vulnerable opponents will have him feeling more useful in no time.
Second... 4th edition paladins are fine, particularly the Dragonborn variety, though I really recommend going CHA then STR, or forsaking STR entirely thanks to the Martial Training feat.
Third... paladins take a few levels to come into their own. By 6th, thanks to Wrath of the Gods --good even if you 'only' have a CHA of 14-- and items like the Iron Armbands of Might (AV, +2 to melee damage, kinda cheesy), you can quickly ramp up their damage potential to Striker territory.
Even something simple like a Bloodclaw weapon (AV again, take enhancement bonus in damage for 2X enhancement bonus extra damage) can make a big difference.
Under optimal conditions --ie, while Bloodied, using a Bloodclaw battle axe, and under the effect of Wrath of the Gods-- my Dragonborn paladin does 1d10+19 w/his at-will.
Fourth... having to split your item budget between a weapon and an implement is a problem. We allow paladins to use their weapons as implements.
Fifth... throw some undead at the paladin. Being able to generate Radiant damage (w/a weapon attack) against vulnerable opponents will have him feeling more useful in no time.
