Unified Tables of Combat Stats

[Flibbertigibbet]

Hey guys,

One thing I've always wanted to have - a unified table which shows what a PC's stats should be at any given level.

Ie, a 9th level Paladin should have Attack+12, AC 25, 100 Hit Points, Reflex 16......et cetera. A 10th level Paladin should have Attack+13, AC 25.....and so forth.

Ideally it would be one unified table for all classes with some rough modifications to apply to get different classes. (Ie, the Rogue is a Dex class so add a couple of points to Reflex save.)

I don't care about the inputs (strength, quantity of magic weapons, feat choice, whatever), just the final results.

Has anyone seen something like that floating around the internet? If I were to sit down and try to make one up, how would you suggest I go about doing it?

Seems like it would be a really useful tool.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Sincerely,

Alex

 

[Dice4Hire]

If you want an average paladin of each level, that should not be too hard to figure out, the math is simple, especially if you just look at ability score increases and getting magical magic items at the appropriate levels.

But once races and feats and Paragon Paths and especially Epic Destinies come into play the results vary a lot. Plus the age-old optimized vs unoptimized argument. But going with a standard 16 14 14 buy, with the 16 in str or charisma (another complication) and the other two stats siting in the other save stats, it could be done on a spreadsheet with minimal work.

But I know of no place this has been done. I made up something like this a long time ago when I was playing with monster abilities, but I apparently deleted it.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I would think there is an 'expected stat range' just based on level and role... with variance to once side or the other for a variety of reasons.

One of my troubles is balancing custom monsters against the PCs, and while I don't want to build them specfically against the stats of a given PC.. that is what I tend to do.

If I have a table of expected To-Hit and Defences, and maybe spike DPR... that would make it less unfair to the one guy who regularly sends me his character {so its the one I tend to check the monster builds against...}

 

[Destil]

The custom monster defense/attack/damage tables actually work pretty well, without needing to have the players stats. It's still a 'how optimized are your players' sort of thing how hard they'll be on a whole, but the guidelines themselves work well.

 

[Psikus]

Not a unified table with all stats, but I have done some work on attacks and defenses, using normalized (i.e. level-independent) notation and providing average hit rates and guidelines to say whether a stat is above or below expectations. You can find it here.

As for attack damage, I made a bunch of tables and formulas with rough estimations of hit damage and damage per round, for basic attacks from average PCs of any level. They are here.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I've tried to do this before, but it just collapses under the weight of too many assumptions and an increasing number of options as levels go up.

Right at 1st level, do you assume a 16, 18, or 20 in the PC's attack stat?

When, if ever, does the PC take the Expertise feats?

What armor does the PC wear? (Non-trivial question for certain classes.)

Does the PC take AC-boosting feats? What about NACD-boosting feats? When?

There are just too many of those types of questions to have anything more than a vague expectation for any given PC of level X.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Agreed that there are a number of variables that go into this, but I am not thinking of the holy grail of a sharply defined progression chart.. I am thinking more along the lines of a 'band of potential'.. something like:

21st level Skirmisher
AC: 24 +/- 4
Attacks: +17 +/- 3
Damage: normal average = 17
spike damage = 67


with the assumption that we are not trying to pin down every possible variable, but most builds will fall into this range.

Yes, the monster builder is pretty good at setting up the numbers right, but at some point my players are going to realize that I 'custom build' every monster using the default settings.. which means shy of powers and tactics they are all simple reskins.
I would rather be able to tweak the baseline settings within that expected range, but I don't know what it is.

Really what bugs me is whether the next encounter {21st level PCs vs 2 24th level Elite controllers} is going to be a landslide one way or another due to the attack vs defence math.
{To be fair, I want this particular encounter to be an avalanche onto the PCs, but with thier eventual success... its the only encounter in that adventuring day}

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The closest thing would be to build one PC of each class and build for various levels. Enemies & Allies did this back in 3.0, but some characters (Lidda!) were so poory-designed the math didn't work out. (Seriously Lidda, you're a halfling melee rogue without Weapon Finesse?)

 

[Joshua Randall]

Have your players give you copies of their character sheets every time they level up. Then you can see exactly what stats the PCs have, and plans your encounters accordingly.

Personally, though, instead of tweaking to that extent, I'd just have a few more monsters (of same type already there) show up a few rounds into the fight if needed. 4e is all about "more monsters!" rather than a few perfect monsters, anyway.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The closest thing would be to build one PC of each class and build for various levels. Enemies & Allies did this back in 3.0, but some characters (Lidda!) were so poory-designed the math didn't work out. (Seriously Lidda, you're a halfling melee rogue without Weapon Finesse?)

She's a rogue. Of course she doesn't want to pay the feat tax!