Unintended(?) Consequence of No More X-Mas Tree?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Think of it this way. How often in a novel do you see the protagonists stopping for 24 hours because the caster doesn't memorize Water Breathing? .

I guess one of the "tricks" in a novel is that there is always a way of doing the current task without the magic, and the protagonists then use this option. (and since it's a story, they won't fail because their swim check result is simply to low and nobody bothered to take Endurance to hold his breath a few rounds longer)

 

[Raven Crowking]

I'm positive. I have read that book many times when I was younger and Smaug's trashing of that town was one of my favourite parts.

Smaug is probably a bad example of a dragon that you can kill in a magic free D&D environment. I remember a passage from 2nd edition Fighter's handbook about magic free campaigns where it says that a dragon is practically undefeatable. In 3e I agree with them.

Excepting that we are not talking about a "magic free" environment.

If you wanted to recreate Smaug, in particular, using D&D rules, then Smaug would be severely underpowered for a dragon of his age. D&D dragons are not good analogues for Tolkein dragons, nor are they good analogues for folkloric dragons (such as the St. George dragon).

If you wanted to use creatures that are more closely modelled on their literary/folklore sources, though, there are tons of 3rd party materials available for 3e to help you do just that. Indeed, there are tons of free materials availabe on the InterWeb. No stats for Smaug that I could easily locate, though.

I -do- think that we could create stats for Smaug, based on his description in the book, that would be perfectly viable d20 stats, and would make Smaug as tough as he is in the book......but that doesn't mean he would be the toughest thing in a far more high-magic D&D world.

RC

 

[med stud]

Excepting that we are not talking about a "magic free" environment.

Oh, sorry I misunderstood then

If you wanted to recreate Smaug, in particular, using D&D rules, then Smaug would be severely underpowered for a dragon of his age. D&D dragons are not good analogues for Tolkien dragons, nor are they good analogues for folkloric dragons (such as the St. George dragon).

Most likely you are right. There are some places where a conversion will be hard. The damage to knock down a stone building, going by the hardness and hp in the DMG, is more than enough to kill just about any PC in one hit for example.

OTOH Smaug was killed with one arrow. Even if it was a greater arrow of dragon slaying and Bard got very lucky that would place Smaugs' Fort save at +21 or less which isn't so hot for a dragon.

I think a conversion of Smaug would be a real PITA. The biggest problem IMO is that litterature and D&D doesn't reflect each others very well. The St George Dragon and Fafnir, to bring some other examples, aren't described well enough to make a conversion (at least Fafnir). You could make a case that Fafnir was killed by a single stab with a magic sword. If the sword was +5 and Sigurd had Strength +4 and made a critical hit that would place Fafnir's HP at max 34. But again that wouldn't explain why Fafnir was as feared as he was. In short, I like conversions of litterary monsters but I wouldn't consider any of them close because of the differences between literature and D&D.

If you wanted to use creatures that are more closely modelled on their literary/folklore sources, though, there are tons of 3rd party materials available for 3e to help you do just that. Indeed, there are tons of free materials availabe on the InterWeb. No stats for Smaug that I could easily locate, though.

There are lots of material but I would probably create something myself based on what I want. Like, 54 HP, AB Bite +20, Dmg 3d6+8.

I -do- think that we could create stats for Smaug, based on his description in the book, that would be perfectly viable d20 stats, and would make Smaug as tough as he is in the book......but that doesn't mean he would be the toughest thing in a far more high-magic D&D world.
RC

I defenitly agree with this statement

 

[Raven Crowking]

Most likely you are right. There are some places where a conversion will be hard. The damage to knock down a stone building, going by the hardness and hp in the DMG, is more than enough to kill just about any PC in one hit for example.

You have to remember that, in D&D, hit points are abstract. Smaug wasn't killed with one arrow; he was killed with one arrow after being peppered by hundreds or thousands of arrows that didn't kill him. That whole "glancing off his armour" thing was just the description that the DM gave the players.

Now, Bard was the only PC there, but he played it smart. He sent all the NPC archers to deal with the dragon....to face its breath weapon, to get battered by its tail, etc. Then, when he saw that the dragon was weakening, he fired his one magic arrow...and that with a circumstance bonus to hit provided by a thrush (read: DM PC) telling him where to aim. A whole bunch of NPC mooks die, and Bard becomes "The Dragonslayer".

Canny action on the part of the player, if you ask me. Perhaps a bit of DM favouritism, too. I imagine that most players could beat most threats if they could just get the NPCs to whittle them down for a few minutes first. And then they, too, could take the credit for the final, killing blow. "Really, guys, your arrows were doing nothing."

RC

 

[PeterWeller]

(1) That wasn't the point that I was addressing; I was addressing the idea that 3e doesn't do low fantasy easily or well. Which, as I said, is a point that I disagree with.


RC

And I agree with you. My contentions with your houserules were simply that they didn't work for me and how I perceive low magic, not that they didn't make 3E low magic or that you couldn't easily do low magic in 3E. Also, I was pointing out that 4E looks like it will require no houseruling to make low magic, thus making it easier and better for low magic. That might not pan out the way I'm expecting it, but I'm willing to take the developers' words at face value.

Now, Bard was the only PC there, but he played it smart. He sent all the NPC archers to deal with the dragon....to face its breath weapon, to get battered by its tail, etc. Then, when he saw that the dragon was weakening, he fired his one magic arrow...and that with a circumstance bonus to hit provided by a thrush (read: DM PC) telling him where to aim. A whole bunch of NPC mooks die, and Bard becomes "The Dragonslayer".

Canny action on the part of the player, if you ask me. Perhaps a bit of DM favouritism, too. I imagine that most players could beat most threats if they could just get the NPCs to whittle them down for a few minutes first. And then they, too, could take the credit for the final, killing blow. "Really, guys, your arrows were doing nothing."

This is a really good way to look at that scenario.