Union in your game

[arntof]

Sigil couldn`t work for them, at least not as a main base. They would get embroiled in factions, and forced to take sides, somehow. At least the Planar Cartographic Society would get seriously bad consequneces by this, possibly breaking apart into several smaller units all allied to different factions.

And after the Faction Wars? I guess they are worried that the LoP would treat them as a faction and crush them. To me LoP makes the situation unstable, as noone knows what she`d do about this. Did her edict only outlaw the 15 factions that were involved in the Wars, or would she treat other factions or societies the same way?

Better to build on a rising star like Union, where they can form the city as it grows (remember, only 80 years old yet).

And epic doesn`t mean unique, really. It can mean that sometimes, and sometimes it really is, but what it really means is power. An epic character is the same as most others, he loves/hates/wants the same things at many levels, but he is so good at fighting/magic/ some particular other skill that he is able to do some of those things better.

 

[Ripzerai]

Sigil couldn`t work for them, at least not as a main base. They would get embroiled in factions, and forced to take sides, somehow.

Not necessarily; it depends on your campaign. You could argue that the population of Union should get embroiled in faction politics just as much (the Epic Level Handbook even mentions the Believers of the Source existing in Union). You could also argue that the factions tend to leave the Cartographers alone even in the City of Doors, as a mutual truce (or even out of disinterest, as they all have their own cartographers).

I can see a brief period of uncertainty after the Faction War, but by now (seven years later in real time) things should have stablized; everyone should know that the Lady of Pain has no intention of killing off groups who had no part in the war itself.

I guess if, in your campaign, you presented Sigil as a place where the factions tear everything apart and the Lady of Pain leaves everyone too terrified to act, it's little wonder your players preferred Munchkinland. It doesn't have to be like that, though. I could just as easily portray Union in the same way (with the mercanes and their assassins replacing the Lady as the bogeyman of choice), and it wouldn't be much further from what was implied in the source material.

 

[I'm A Banana]

And epic doesn`t mean unique, really. It can mean that sometimes, and sometimes it really is, but what it really means is power. An epic character is the same as most others, he loves/hates/wants the same things at many levels, but he is so good at fighting/magic/ some particular other skill that he is able to do some of those things better.

I think there was a great disconnect between the writers of the ELH, who would agree with this statement, and a significant percentage of the gaming population (or maybe just these boards...), who would entirely disagree.

I think a lot of people wanted to see "epic" handled the way the core game handles artifacts: as something rare, mighty, beyond mortal ken, and entirely beyond the scope of a single +1 to hit.

Which is why I hope FFZ's high-level rules fullfill that need a little better.

 

[pogre]

Since I find the concept of planar cities to be a bit absurd in the first place, Union does not see the light of day IMC. Honestly, I find Sigil to be as silly as most people seem to view Union. Union is downright slapstick, IMO.

I'm in the same boat - mostly.

Strongholds, castles, meeting places, even libraries I have no problem with, but something about a planar city sits wrong with me too.

 

[fnork de sporg]

I'm in the same boat - mostly.

Strongholds, castles, meeting places, even libraries I have no problem with, but something about a planar city sits wrong with me too.

So would you care to bite the bullet and tell us what that is?

 

[wingsandsword]

The Garrote appeals alot to more evil-aligned characters, as they are given access to magnificent epic-level secret "poison" like mortu, and the like.

I've just got to say here that mortu was the thing I hated most from the ELH, the thing I took one look at and said "never in a million years would I ever let that in a game, or play in a game that used it".

So, there is a poison which when applied to a dead body, utterly destroys the soul? Touch this goo to the eyes of the corpse, and somewhere on the outer planes a petitioner is winking out of existence. Apparently harmless to the living, but it makes it so that even a True Ressurection won't work. That's a insane use of Craft (Poisonmaking) if ever there is one, I don't care if it's epic. Of course, this general philosophy is why I don't use Barghest's in my game (a CR 4 creature that can make it so a 20th level Cleric can't bring you back to life?), but still, it just reeks of uncreative writing and DM'ing to introduce tension:

Players: "We can true ressurect people now, bringing people back is just a matter of time, spell-slots and cost"
DM: "Uh, well, now the bad guys have this poison, you see, that makes it so that True Resurrection doesn't work, you have to use a Wish/Miracle, and it only has a 50% chance of working. . ."

The Garotte otherwise is a perfect example of everything wrong with Union. A guild of 5,500+ epic-level hired killers. More people than exist in most villiages adventurers visit are part of this guild, and all are level 20+ (with at least one 36th level character listed), who charge high six-digit figures for assassinations, enough money to build an entire material city or buy a small barony, and this is only one of many groups all of this power?

From a rules standpoint, I thought the ELH was okay (not exceptional, I've seen epic games that have broken those rules and made them scream for mercy), but the "Epic Setting" of Union just seemed way too videogamish, that you just go to a place where everybody is high level, everything is much more expensive, the average city watchman is powerful and skilled enough to lead entire armies and defeat 1,000 normal men singlehanded, and somehow all this incredible power hasn't wiped out entire countries with an accidental wave of the hand.

Epic characters should be rare and special, not have entire cities of them clogging up the multiverse. It should be an accomplishment to break 20th level, you're one of the big movers and shakers in the multiverse, you have power reaching the upper limits of mortal man, you should not be just another guy who got his Union Passport and can go to a town with 100,000 people where you're the low-level guy now.

 

[arntof]

I think a lot of people wanted to see "epic" handled the way the core game handles artifacts: as something rare, mighty, beyond mortal ken, and entirely beyond the scope of a single +1 to hit.

The epic characters are beyond most mortals in their home world. But they are not unique, and not all-powerful either. Even The Simbul, Elminster and the rest of the Chosen in FR are not that, but rather held at bay by other similar powered characters.

Union, although far from being only for epic characters, is for those epic characters that want to be with others like themselves, to somehow blend into the crowd, escape from the possibly constant fame and danger on their home world (where people would admire them, emulate them, demand help from them, become hunted for glory, etc). But I am sure most of Union`s inhabitants are far from an epic experience level, really. The reputation of Union as a sanctuary for epic characters is far more important than what actually is there.


About Sigil:
Well, in my campaign my players actually played through Die Vecna Die, and that somehow coloured their views, I guess. Still, one of my players(playing a Spellsword) tried, he made an attempt to collect the Spellswords from various worlds to Sigil to try to take up the role of Harmonium there after their departure. He had to give up, partly because of him liking the Sons of Mercy and not wanting to get in opposition/competition with them, and also because he got an opportunity to become a proxy of a greater deity (which includes gaining a divine rank), something that unabled him to even enter Sigil.

My campaign has had sessions most weeks since 1996, so it is quite long and has been through many "editions" of the game as well as game worlds (Mystara, FR, a tiny bit Greyhawk, other primes, and the Outer Planes).

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

The epic characters are beyond most mortals in their home world. But they are not unique, and not all-powerful either. Even The Simbul, Elminster and the rest of the Chosen in FR are not that, but rather held at bay by other similar powered characters.

Union, although far from being only for epic characters, is for those epic characters that want to be with others like themselves, to somehow blend into the crowd, escape from the possibly constant fame and danger on their home world (where people would admire them, emulate them, demand help from them, become hunted for glory, etc). But I am sure most of Union`s inhabitants are far from an epic experience level, really. The reputation of Union as a sanctuary for epic characters is far more important than what actually is there.

There is no longer such a thing as "bleding into the crowd" for epic-level characters, unless they are deliberately disguising themselves. That's one of the prices they have to pay for their powers.

And I doubt that their is anything as dangerous on their home world as the other inhabitants of Union.

 

[Drazen]

The haters on this thread are crushing my spirit and mentality! Agh!
I loved the Union! I found it fascinating, I find these points too over-analyzing.
Why not we say "It just works."
Though.....Union sentinels gets paid 5x their level in gold per day? HAH! A character of that level SHOULD be running an empire! But....perhaps they were trained to that level.
I doubt a police force of 6th level warriors would fare well against a militia of legions from the abyss. So these Union individuals would maintain the peace. Even if they find themselves outmatched, like the book says, the Mercanes would shake down some powerful allies to come to their aid.

Lower maintenance would be conducted by the lower levels of the union sentinels, but lower maintenance was also conducted by prisoners who violated certain laws.

 

[Umbran]

The haters on this thread are crushing my spirit and mentality! Agh!

Note, the haters on this thread were writing a decade and a half ago.