Universal class system.

[Charles Gray]

I'm playing around with a universal class system, using the Anime D20 SRD that is provided by Goo. Can anyone tell me if this makes any sense? Oh, the tables are on different pages due to the joy of having WORD decide to cut them in half. (the final version, will, of course, be laid out in Framemaker/Indesign 2.0).

 

[Mordane76]

Alright... I'll nibble on this.

First question -- spell casters? How do I mimic spell casters using this system? I don't see costs for purchasing spell level access, spell slots... am I supposed to consider it a "Talent," but that would make spellcasting far too cheap. How many times should I charge them, and for what different things should I charge? How should I affect their acquisition of spell casting power?

Second question -- your X2 surcharge for "high level abilities?" Where are the cut offs? What denotes a high level ability? I mean, some of the higher save bonuses and BAB and Defense bonuses are "high level abilities." In some campaigns, spellcasters of any level are "high level abilities."

Third question -- can I spend fractions of points? Some of your abilities, like skill points, only cost .25 of a point. If I have an Intelligence of 18, I only have to spend a quarter point for five skill points, and if I spend a full point, I have 8 skill points. This, IMO, is why Mutants and Masterminds decided to not have Intelligence influence skill point acquisition -- it can really muck up a points-based character development system.

Fourth question -- why should I use your system when I can just as easily use Mutants and Masterminds, which already covers most of this material, except for d20 Modern style Talents?

 

[Charles Gray]

Alright... I'll nibble on this.

First question -- spell casters? How do I mimic spell casters using this system? I don't see costs for purchasing spell level access, spell slots... am I supposed to consider it a "Talent," but that would make spellcasting far too cheap. How many times should I charge them, and for what different things should I charge? How should I affect their acquisition of spell casting power?

For the first game that's going to be using this, there aren't any spell casting classes-- there are psionics, but that's going to use Green Ronin's skills and feats system. Part of that reason is because I'm still answering some of those questions, and it's not made easier by my cordial dislike of the vancian D&D basic system. There are some other magic systems out there that use skills (or skill style) systems that I'd be more liklely to grab.

Second question -- your X2 surcharge for "high level abilities?" Where are the cut offs? What denotes a high level ability? I mean, some of the higher save bonuses and BAB and Defense bonuses are "high level abilities." In some campaigns, spellcasters of any level are "high level abilities."

That was my error-- "high" level abilities in this case would be defined as any skill, save, or BAB that is higher than the chart allows-- I.E., higher than an equivelant level character could achieve in a normal level system. That's to keep some degree of continuity.

Third question -- can I spend fractions of points? Some of your abilities, like skill points, only cost .25 of a point. If I have an Intelligence of 18, I only have to spend a quarter point for five skill points, and if I spend a full point, I have 8 skill points. This, IMO, is why Mutants and Masterminds decided to not have Intelligence influence skill point acquisition -- it can really muck up a points-based character development system.

You can only get the INT modifier once per level. So if you spend a quarter point, you get five skill points-- less than most regular characters get per level. If you spend another .25 of a point, you only get 1 point, not (1+int modifier). I hadn't written that down, and the first time I tried it, a friend pointed out "Hey, I can spend .25 points four times, and get 20 skill points for 1 character point!" .

Fourth question -- why should I use your system when I can just as easily use Mutants and Masterminds, which already covers most of this material, except for d20 Modern style Talents?

I used the base points of hte BESM d20 system for two reasons. 1. while also OGC, the M&M system (which I love, BTW) didn't natively handle hit points, and the BESM was closer to the traditional style of D20. 2. When I rammed their point break down of the core classes for both modern and traditional D20 into a spread sheet and did some other work, they looked like they nailed things pretty close to on the nose, which made trying to detirmine the balance of the point scores much easier.
Now, if this had been a superhero game, you're right, I'd have gone directly to M&M, which I think does the superhero genre better than any other D20 based attempt so far.

Thanks for your comments! Hoped this helped.

 

[Mordane76]

For the first game that's going to be using this, there aren't any spell casting classes-- there are psionics, but that's going to use Green Ronin's skills and feats system. Part of that reason is because I'm still answering some of those questions, and it's not made easier by my cordial dislike of the vancian D&D basic system. There are some other magic systems out there that use skills (or skill style) systems that I'd be more liklely to grab.

From this standpoint, cool. I also could see this working well for using Jedi powers as well, which are also completely Skill and Feat based in acquisition.

That was my error-- "high" level abilities in this case would be defined as any skill, save, or BAB that is higher than the chart allows-- I.E., higher than an equivelant level character could achieve in a normal level system. That's to keep some degree of continuity.

Bolded section selected by me

Okay, that makes more sense, but your explanation raises a new question. Does the bolded part mean that a 3rd level character could have a BAB +4 (which is higher than he would normally be allowed) if he was willing/able to spend 24 character points? While this would be over half his availible character points at this level, he'd still have enough for 4d4 HD (5 points, spending 2 for that extra HD), 12 Skill points + 3 levels of Int (4 points), 2 Feats (4 points), and +3 Defense (3 points).

As a 3rd level character, this build, if my reading of your rules is right, would be legal. It would have better average HP than a wizard (not neccessarily that great), better BAB than a Fighter of equilvalent level, a reasonable number of feats, skill points of a ranger or a barbarian of equilvalent level, and good Defense for a level equivalent character. It would have very poor saves, though, for a character of equivalent level, so that would be the trade off.

You can only get the INT modifier once per level. So if you spend a quarter point, you get five skill points-- less than most regular characters get per level. If you spend another .25 of a point, you only get 1 point, not (1+int modifier). I hadn't written that down, and the first time I tried it, a friend pointed out "Hey, I can spend .25 points four times, and get 20 skill points for 1 character point!"

I understood this in the first read, but I still worry about this. A character can get five skill points every level, with high Intelligence, for a miniscule investment. Even though it only adds once in a level, it MIGHT be a good consideration not to allow it to modify skill points at all, as M&M did.

As for it being less than most regular characters get, I beg to differ -- Sorcerers, Clerics, and Fighters all get 2 + Int skill points per level. Two of these classes are standards of D&D, thus representing probably about 35-40% of all characters made by players, and probably a higher percentage of all multiclass characters have levels in at least one of these classes. Wizards benefit from requiring a high Int for spells, so they don't really count in this list, but Rangers, Monks, and Barbarians would also get this amount of skill points if they had a Int bonus of +1. Only the Rogue cannot receive this number of skill points, unless they suffer from a very low Intelligence.



As for another question/comment, I just thought about something. How will your system simulate the x4 bonus on Skill Points that all characters receive in their first level class? At present, if you have a character starting with only 10 character points, he would have 8 of them to even come close to the Rogue's number of skill points at first level, leaving him nothing for HD, saves, BAB, special abilities, or feats.

 

[Charles Gray]

From this standpoint, cool. I also could see this working well for using Jedi powers as well, which are also completely Skill and Feat based in acquisition.


Bolded section selected by me

Okay, that makes more sense, but your explanation raises a new question. Does the bolded part mean that a 3rd level character could have a BAB +4 (which is higher than he would normally be allowed) if he was willing/able to spend 24 character points? While this would be over half his availible character points at this level, he'd still have enough for 4d4 HD (5 points, spending 2 for that extra HD), 12 Skill points + 3 levels of Int (4 points), 2 Feats (4 points), and +3 Defense (3 points).

OK-- let me look at this. BAB +4 for a 3rd level character would be 9 points (3x3)+ 6=15 points. I'm not certain where the 24 points come from. (I've probably gotta start setting up a spreadsheet for this). The rest looks ok.

As a 3rd level character, this build, if my reading of your rules is right, would be legal. It would have better average HP than a wizard (not neccessarily that great), better BAB than a Fighter of equilvalent level, a reasonable number of feats, skill points of a ranger or a barbarian of equilvalent level, and good Defense for a level equivalent character. It would have very poor saves, though, for a character of equivalent level, so that would be the trade off.

Pretty much-- now a few points. Note that for the first setting I'm using this, the massive damage rule is in effect-- so low saves will be a pretty serious disadvantage. You've also pointed out something I hadn't realized (thanks)-- any extra hit dice bought in one level cannot have the constitution add. Else yiou could be a fighter with two D4's at a level, and the +4 con add which woudl give you more hit points than you paid for. I might let it go with the same proviso of all other level exceeding abilities (doubling the cost), but even so, someone who bought up their con might find a way to finesse it. What do you think?

I understood this in the first read, but I still worry about this. A character can get five skill points every level, with high Intelligence, for a miniscule investment. Even though it only adds once in a level, it MIGHT be a good consideration not to allow it to modify skill points at all, as M&M did.

As for it being less than most regular characters get, I beg to differ -- Sorcerers, Clerics, and Fighters all get 2 + Int skill points per level. Two of these classes are standards of D&D, thus representing probably about 35-40% of all characters made by players, and probably a higher percentage of all multiclass characters have levels in at least one of these classes. Wizards benefit from requiring a high Int for spells, so they don't really count in this list, but Rangers, Monks, and Barbarians would also get this amount of skill points if they had a Int bonus of +1. Only the Rogue cannot receive this number of skill points, unless they suffer from a very low Intelligence. [\QUOTE]

I was thinking about this-- but our notational fighter, with an IQ of 10, for example, would get 2skill points per level at the regular price (2 skill points plus+int= .5 cp). That leaves him 9.5 CP points. If he's at first level, He needs a +1 BAB (3), D10 (2.5), +2 fort save (2)and a bonus feat (2), which takes up all ten CP. I'll probably put in a note about it, as well as several different characters designed with different attitudes and goals in mind.

As for another question/comment, I just thought about something. How will your system simulate the x4 bonus on Skill Points that all characters receive in their first level class? At present, if you have a character starting with only 10 character points, he would have 8 of them to even come close to the Rogue's number of skill points at first level, leaving him nothing for HD, saves, BAB, special abilities, or feats.

I'm tempted to say leave it to the GM's choice of how many bonus starting points he gives the characters. For Childrens Crusade It'd depend on the starting age-- I'd probably give high School characters at least 10 bonus points to start them off, while a ten year old might get none at all.

Thanks for all your comments! They've already showed me several things I hadn't thought of. If you have any other questoins or ideas, I'd be greatful to hear them!