Universal Translator, Babelfish, or Pocahontas-style linguistics?

[Three_Haligonians]

We're a little tongue-tied Our question is how exactly does the Tongues spell work? The PHB 3.5 states:

"This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable a subject to speak with creature who don't speak. The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries. This spell does not predispose any creature addressed toward the subject in any way."

So, if you have tongues cast on yourself, do you hear every language spoken as your own native tongue? Or do you suddenly comprehend every language, as though you are fluent?

Also, how would common expressions be treated? For instance, in the Races of Stone, under the language section in the Goliath chapter, various expressions are listed. The literal translation of one is "make sure your spear shaft is straight". More broadly it means "mind your own business, not mine". How would a person with the Tongues spell cast on them understand this?

Another example, a real-life example, is "what are you at" in Newfoundland. English is my native tongue, but the first time someone said "what're you at?" to me, I had no idea what they were trying to say. So, would this be considered the "regional dialect" mentioned in the spell, or something totally different?

Also, if you meet say, a Demon, for the first time, and don't have any Knowledge the Planes ranks, would you know to speak to it in Abyssal before it spoke to you?

One final question: if the spell does make you just understand all languages as though you were fluent, wouldn't you, by repeated use, be able to learn the language (for example, Druidic?).

Thanks,

R and J from Three Haligonians

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I find, in this case, that it's best to go back to the source material.

In that case, since the spell does not otherwise indicate, you never actually know what language you're hearing or speaking.

Instead, everything you hear is translated into the appropriate language *for you.*

Thus, by your example, the person under the influence of the Tongues spell would hear, "Mind your own business." The Newfie example is a perfect example of a regional dialect. I assume the question means, "What are you doing?"

I've ruled, in the past, that the recepient, when speaking, has two options: 1) he can force his words to come out in a language he knows of but does not [EDIT: necessarily] speak, or 2) he can force his words to come out in the native language of a particular target.

Thus, upon greating a horde of firey creatures, the PC could say, "I speak in Ignan." Any creatures in the horde who understand Ignan would therefore understand the PC, though he would understand anything spoken by the creatures.

Alternatively, the PC could say, "I speak in the native language of the particularly tall one in the back." If the particularly tall one in the back was actually a demon of some form, the PC would begin speaking in Abyssal, which wouldn't help him with the Ignan-only speaking salamanders rapidly approaching.

Note that, except in the first case, the PC doesn't know what language he is speaking, and he never knows what language anyone else is speaking - unless he asks.

The reason the spell wouldn't let you learn other languages is that you never hear the other languages - the magic of the spell translates everything you hear, Babelfish-style, into your own language, and vice-versa.

 

[noeuphoria]

I would go a bit farther and say that slang and colloquialisms and slang aren't translated for you. After all if what the goliath says is "make sure your spear is straight" in his native language, that's what you hear, not the intent behind it. That's why, as an english speaker, I can go to britain, I can understand what they say, but I might misconstrue some things. (It's a shock the first time a girl tells you she's taking a nap, and wants you to "knock me up in a few hours")

 

[dcollins]

We're a little tongue-tied Our question is how exactly does the Tongues spell work?

Pretty good question. Here's how I'd rule it, by interpolation:
- In brief, "as a universal translator".
- You comprehend every language as though you were fluent.
- Common expressions, i.e., idioms, may in fact be problematic. You get the literal meaning but not the inference from them (which once in a while may be very interesting roleplay). "Idioms" are not the same as "dialects" (see dictionary?), and so are not covered by the spell language. Note that even Star Trek had an episode (not a great one imo, but...) that featured difficulties because the universal translator was directly translating idiom-heavy speakers.
- You would need to hear a language first before knowing to pick that language to speak in.
- You can learn any language by spending Skill Points. Whether the in-game rationale is a learned instructor or concentrated use of tongues spells doesn't make any difference to the mechanics of that.

 

[Saeviomagy]

- Common expressions, i.e., idioms, may in fact be problematic. You get the literal meaning but not the inference from them (which once in a while may be very interesting roleplay). "Idioms" are not the same as "dialects" (see dictionary?), and so are not covered by the spell language. Note that even Star Trek had an episode (not a great one imo, but...) that featured difficulties because the universal translator was directly translating idiom-heavy speakers.

See - I'd say that this is going against the wording of the spell - it says it allows you to "speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature". The only way that you could work your own little interpretation is to add "unless they use uncommon turns of phrase" to the end of that.

The key to me is that you don't use the spell and speak all languages, you speak THAT creatures language, right there.

 

[dcollins]

Yes, you speak the language. No, you don't pick up every cultural implication of a statement. Understanding the language is different from understanding the meaning.

I have foreign students who teach me this repeatedly. More than once I've had a student who understands every word I just said, but need to ask what I mean by it. (e.g., "What does 'There's no magic bullet' mean?") There's a pretty clear difference in these issues, that I wouldn't want to erase from my game.

And thanks for the "little interpretation" comment, very respectful.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The way I see it, a language and its idioms are intertwined so much that the spell in my oppinion should allow understanding of these phrases. How often does a phrase have to be used before it is a part of the language? What about words with alternate meanings associated with them that arn't "official?"

Also, that's a lot of extra work for the DM on the off chance that a PC casts Tongues, although you could just throw out random things. "He said something about bedrock mixing with Slate and started laughing." I can see where it might be fun, but only in small doses for me.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The way I see it, a language and its idioms are intertwined so much that the spell in my oppinion should allow understanding of these phrases. How often does a phrase have to be used before it is a part of the language? What about words with alternate meanings associated with them that arn't "official?"

The problem with this is that you need a limit to what you can reasonably translate with tongues and what not - imagine if two people would speak in a certain code - they use common words, but the meaning is changed due to the context - that´s not a lot different from idioms, I think.
If you don´t see it as a problem, okay, no worries .

In my Diamond Throne Campaign, I ruled that the Tongues spell couldn´t translate codes or languages that are no longer known by living beings. I probably wouldn´t have thought about it if the problem of translation wouldn´t be important to the plot, though...

 

[Zelgadas]

This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect.

The emphasis above is mine. As I see it, idioms and colloquialisms are not part of the language, itself. They are, however, part of the regional dialect. Thus, if a goliath thells you to check if your spear is straight, you know that he's telling you to mind your own beeswax because he's using a common idiom from his regional dialect. If he's using an expression that only he and his close friends use, then I'd rule that you get the words but not the meaning; however, my ruling would be that, if the speaker is using an expression that would be commonly understood by the majority of members of his particular culture, then the spell's recipeint understands meaning as well as words.

Edit: Formatting mistakes. Gotta love 'em.

 

[AuraSeer]

I rule that tongues works exactly like the universal translator in Star Trek; it makes communication "just work" unless the plot requires otherwise.