Unnerfing monsters?

[Blackbrrd]

A typical Level 1 Invoker encounter power does with coventant of Wrath:
9 total damage vs one target
34 total damage vs three targets (11.5 damage per target)
67 total damage vs five targets (13.5 damage per target)
108 total damage vs seven targets (15.5 damage per target)
157 total damage vs nine targets (17.5 damage per target)

Going from 5 mobs to 9 mobs adds 90(!) to the damage done by the invoker in one round. If he uses a daily or another encounter power at level three he can easily do this damage twice and outright kills 9 mobs in one go up to about level 3... After that the hitpoints of the mobs scales faster than his damage, but he can easily shave off 50% of the hp of all mobs in an encounter.

 

[Fanaelialae]

A typical Level 1 Invoker encounter power does with coventant of Wrath:
9 total damage vs one target
34 total damage vs three targets (11.5 damage per target)
67 total damage vs five targets (13.5 damage per target)
108 total damage vs seven targets (15.5 damage per target)
157 total damage vs nine targets (17.5 damage per target)

Going from 5 mobs to 9 mobs adds 90(!) to the damage done by the invoker in one round. If he uses a daily or another encounter power at level three he can easily do this damage twice and outright kills 9 mobs in one go up to about level 3... After that the hitpoints of the mobs scales faster than his damage, but he can easily shave off 50% of the hp of all mobs in an encounter.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that for that to be the case, all 9 mobs would have to be inside the AoE. I think it's one of those things that looks more powerful in theory than in practice (where any DM worth his salt will spread the enemy out a bit rather then packing them into the smallest square he can find).

 

[Nebulous]

I've used 3/4 hit points +1/2 level damage for a while now and it works fairly well. Except, as mentioned, low level monsters have minimal impact. I'm not worried about high level, and by the time players reach 5th (where i personally feel 4e gets really fun) and straight through paragon, the jumbled numbers work out well. I still deal with a few long fights though and wish they could go slightly faster.

 

[Mentat55]

For my PBP game, I've been using -25% HP/+33% damage for my monsters, mainly to speed up combat for the slower online format. It seems to work well -- monsters go down pretty quickly, even elite brutes, and they hit hard.

The other thing I do is stick more closely to the suggested monster damage expressions from the DMG when using monsters created before the MM2.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that for that to be the case, all 9 mobs would have to be inside the AoE. I think it's one of those things that looks more powerful in theory than in practice (where any DM worth his salt will spread the enemy out a bit rather then packing them into the smallest square he can find).

That level 1 AoE is 7 by 7 squares big (it's a close burst 3) and only targets enemies. Most dungeon rooms aren't bigger than that. I wouldn't say having one monster for every 9 squares as "packing" them.

I just stopped using melee minions with the Invoker in the party. All melee minions did was boost the Invokers damage. He still shines pretty nicely, never targeting less than two mobs until there is only one left.

 

[keterys]

That level 1 AoE is 7 by 7 squares big (it's a close burst 3) and only targets enemies. Most dungeon rooms aren't bigger than that.

Most combats I do are at least 15 x 15. 7 x 7 is very small for 4E combats.

Also, 7 x 7 excluding the center is 48 squares, so 9 guys packed into there would be every 5 squares not 9, really

I just stopped using melee minions with the Invoker in the party. All melee minions did was boost the Invokers damage. He still shines pretty nicely, never targeting less than two mobs until there is only one left.

I find this... conclusion... dubious. Sounds almost like an encouragement to use melee minions.

 

[Markn]

I think where Blackbrrd is coming from is that as a DM, using melee minions to their effectiveness involves having to pay special attention to the burst radius, if you will of the Invoker. Unless the DM starts square counting, aka very careful planning in movement, they die a horrible death without being somewhat effective.

In my campaign, there is a wizard and I often forget just how big a burst 3 is and he manages to nuke minions quite a bit. I've learned to compensate for this by staggering when they arrive or have them show up from different directions or other similar tactics. Still, there is a mental upkeep for the DM either in initial encounter design or during the fight itself.

At least I think that is where Blackbrrd is coming from.

Now as a player of a Master of the Starry Night Starlock, I have a kick@ss encounter close burst 20 power that targest only cursed creatures and with my build I can hit 5 people during the second round and the damage output is pretty enormous as it equals most of my dailies and yet it is multiple target.

Imagine Blackbrrd, a Close Burst 20!

Ohhh, the fun!

 

[keterys]

I guess what I'm saying is... his special ability is based on hitting more guys. It's okay to let him have his fun

Now, I will admit there are a lot of _bad_ minions, so don't use ones he'll hit on a 3 and will hardly do any damage. But excising a monster type because he's specifically good at 'em. Eh.

Now, treat it as highly reduced xp? Sure!

 

[Markn]

I guess what I'm saying is... his special ability is based on hitting more guys. It's okay to let him have his fun

Now, I will admit there are a lot of _bad_ minions, so don't use ones he'll hit on a 3 and will hardly do any damage. But excising a monster type because he's specifically good at 'em. Eh.

Now, treat it as highly reduced xp? Sure!

Agreed. I, myself, don't follow the 4-1 rule for minions. I think its closer to 6-1 so in essence I am giving less XP, but keeping the XP the same by adding some minions.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I guess what I'm saying is... his special ability is based on hitting more guys. It's okay to let him have his fun

Now, I will admit there are a lot of _bad_ minions, so don't use ones he'll hit on a 3 and will hardly do any damage. But excising a monster type because he's specifically good at 'em. Eh.

Now, treat it as highly reduced xp? Sure!

All the GOOD minions I have found are ranged, because the players mostly just leave them alone since I put them out at maximum range. Melee minions will often find themselves in a 7x7 square area if the party doesn't split up too much...

Adding melee minions with that Invoker would add negative xp to the encounter as far as I am concerned, so I don't see the point in adding them.

About them ranged minions - I just give them bows or whatnought, range 10 or 20 and don't change anything else...