Untrained/trained Skills....Noooo!

[Celebrim]

Isn't the obvious way to solve this to have some sort of "follow my lead" rules wherein the master of stealth or whatever can bring a small number of cohorts along by accepting a modifier to his skill check? It's what would do if I were rebuilding the skill system.

I'm not sure that's an obvious way to solve the problem, and it has a little bit of wierdness to it*, but sure, that is one approach.

However, in this case, it's still a single character challenge. The other characters aren't really participating in the challenge, just being conveyed to whatever the next one is.

*One of the wierdnesses of your rule is that as stated, it doesn't seem to matter what the skill levels are of whoever is going along with you. To resolve that, you'd have to have some sort of complex variation of 'aid another', that let you figure out how much harder it was to lead an oafish giant in platemail compared to a halfling rogue just a few levels lower than yourself. By the time you get a system that handles all the wierdness, it's no longer a straight forward method.

 

[Celebrim]

This is 3e thinking, we have to consider that 4e may do spot vs hide differently.

I certainly hope so. Improved hide rules was near the top of my list.

For example, it may be that you take 10 on hide checks and the spotter makes a roll. In such a case, if you have 5 people with a 70% chance to beat that spot check, then the party as a whole has a 70% chance.

This has wierdness associated with it too. Now, it doesn't matter how many people there are. Every square foot of the yard contains a ninja, and its no easier to notice than one ninja in the shadows. A thousand men ambush just as a effectively as five. I imagine one of those scenes from children's books where 20 kids are crammed into a closet hiding. I'm not saying its necessarily a bad approach, but it would need work.

Now its true that if one guy has a 95% the party is dragging him down, but FAR less than the scenario you describe.

For the purposes of the example, it doesn't really matter. All the numbers are just there to illustrate the point. The point is that the other people don't make him more stealthy, and so don't encourage the solving of a stealth challenge by non-stealthy characters even if the gap between stealthy and non-stealthy is smaller.

 

[Imp]

However, in this case, it's still a single character challenge. The other characters aren't really participating in the challenge, just being conveyed to whatever the next one is.

Yeah but it doesn't leave the rest of the party at camp – it's not as bad.

*One of the wierdnesses of your rule is that as stated, it doesn't seem to matter what the skill levels are of whoever is going along with you. To resolve that, you'd have to have some sort of complex variation of 'aid another', that let you figure out how much harder it was to lead an oafish giant in platemail compared to a halfling rogue just a few levels lower than yourself. By the time you get a system that handles all the wierdness, it's no longer a straight forward method.

You don't have to make it that complex... a series of mods should do it. "Each party member that has at least 1/2 your ranks in the skill: +1; Cohort is improperly equipped: -2; Cohort is uncooperative or distracted: -4; each party member beyond the 2nd: -2", etc., figuring some sort of base penalty to start with and going from there. In any case it should be the mark of a master rogue or ranger that he can insert a fighter with platemail into an armed camp, or abscond with a fainting prince(ss).

 

[halfpintgamer1976]

Hi All,
I was reading through the 'star wars' stuff that 'might' be relevent to 4E. And I was appalled to see that skills are either trained or untrained. I hope that this will not apply to 4E, please someone put my worries to rest 'cos I am excited about another edition. If not, your roll would be:
"1/2 character level + relevant ability modifier + 5 (if trained) + 5 (if Skill Focus)"
I have two MAJOR problems with this:
1. It stops any characters having any flavour through their skill choices, you can do anything you want (fine if your a Jedi, not so if you are a Ftr/Pal etc).
2. A 20th level (or so) adventurer -often with very high abilities- who has never picked up a sculpters tools in his life will be able to make things like an old master, who, lets face it, is unlikely to advance beyond 5th level cos he won't get any XP doing sculpture!
Adventurer: 10+4[ish] vs 2+2[ish]+5+5
Hopefully it is not happening......
Share your 2p...
M1.9P

I like it. For someone who hasn't played d andd before meeting my husband, true 20 was a far easier system. I pick the skills i want my character to have and voila, he has those skills. Adding i nthe numbers and how many points you got seemed to be needless math.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That situation isn't going to change if you adopt the SWSE skill rules.

Yes, it would.

In SWSE, the non-sneaker of decent level has a +4 to +8 to Stealth (+2 Dex, 4th to 12th level, no armor check penalty).

In D&D, the non-sneaker of decent level has a +2 to -14 to both Hide and Move Silently (+2 Dex, +0 to -16 ACP).

You don't see any difference in probability between those numbers?

The SWSE rules make it so that the party, as a whole, has a fairly decent chance to sneak past the mook guards, but that the talented sneaker is the only one with decent chance to sneak past the dedicated, high-level guard. Contrast this with the D&D rules, which make it impossible for the party, as a whole, to sneak past just about anyone.

Oh good grief. How many times do I have to say this? RPG's are not movies. They are not novels. They are not comic books. They are RPG's. They inherently work according to different rules, namely that they work by rules.

Oh good grief yourself.

The fact that you keep responding like this says to me that you have absolutely no idea how the minds of roleplayers work.

I find your lack of imagination disturbing.

 

[Zurai]

In D&D, the non-sneaker of decent level has a +2 to -14 to both Hide and Move Silently (+2 Dex, +0 to -16 ACP).

How do you get -16 ACP? The heaviest PHB armor is -7, and shields don't count since you wouldn't be wielding them while sneaking around. EDIT: And Hide/Move Silently aren't double-penalized like Swim is.

 

[Celebrim]

The fact that you keep responding like this says to me that you have absolutely no idea how the minds of roleplayers work.

Perhaps. But I have a fairly good idea how novels, movies, and games work and feel confident in saying that they work differently and not everything that works in one can be ported to another. You can craft rules sets to emulate specific elements of a movie but rule sets are null sum games. There are trade offs. Doing one thing means you can't do something else (as well). If you wish to argue otherwise, feel free to do so. If you want to explain to me how you think the minds of roleplayers work, you can do that to.

Telling me about myself is probably a non-productive line of argument though.

I find your lack of imagination disturbing.

I find your personal attacks feeble.

 

[Aaron2]

Much of this discussion is based on the notion that all the players will max out their main skills while never advancing anything else. This hasn't been my experience at all. My players will often add skill ranks in odd skills based on what happened in the previous adventure. So, for example, if they spent an adventure on horseback, they'd add a rank in Ride. By now, their character sheets are tiny histories of their past adventures: those ranks in Animal Handling from when they teamed up with a group of Rangers, the Cleric's Swim from when he almost drown (something just about impossible to do) and that one rank in Pilot (gnomish submarine) from when they escaped from the besieged fortress of Barak Var.

That's something I would rather not lose.


Aaron

 

[Stalker0]

I certainly hope so. Improved hide rules was near the top of my list.

This has wierdness associated with it too. Now, it doesn't matter how many people there are. Every square foot of the yard contains a ninja, and its no easier to notice than one ninja in the shadows. A thousand men ambush just as a effectively as five. I imagine one of those scenes from children's books where 20 kids are crammed into a closet hiding. I'm not saying its necessarily a bad approach, but it would need work.

Agreed, needs something more. Alright, let's throw the concealment rules back in. So now you can only hide if you have some cover and concealment. So now your numbers are limited by how much cover and concealment you have. That fixes the problem you mention of the 50 people moving across the yard.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

How do you get -16 ACP?

Plate and Tower Shield, a fairly common combination.

Notice that it's a range.

-6 (+2 Dex, -8 Full Plate) is certainly within the range and, again, largely makes it impossible to sneak past anything.