Untrained/trained Skills....Noooo!

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The rules accomodate that style of play just fine in 3.5 - especially since planar travel and clerics don't assume any skill useage whatsoever. Why should it be changed in a way that removes player choice? That's idiotic.

You replace the player choice of being mostly incapable in a skill by character design to the player choice of using the Skill in a given encounter.

And why is removing an entire class or group of spells not removing a choice to the players? (Not that I would generally consider that bad, because they might not fit to some settings or play styles)

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

SAGA-style skills remove player choice.

No, it doesn't.

It just moves it around.

Moreover, D&D has always "removed" player choice.

Why can't I play a level 20 pacifist cleric with a BAB of +0 / THAC0 of 20 and a Fort Save Bonus of +0 / Save vs. Poison of 17?

 

[pawsplay]

No, it doesn't.

It just moves it around.

Moreover, D&D has always "removed" player choice.

Why can't I play a level 20 pacifist cleric with a BAB of +0 / THAC0 of 20 and a Fort Save Bonus of +0 / Save vs. Poison of 17?

Not absolutely. But I think it objectively does.

- You cannot train cross class skills
- You cannot train a skill mid-point between maxed out and not maxed out
- You cannot add a new skill at every level... if you want skills from two classes it is impossible to have your new class skills before level 3.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not absolutely. But I think it objectively does.

- You cannot train cross class skills

That's a detail of the Starwars implementation, but this doesn't mean that's how it stays.

- You cannot train a skill mid-point between maxed out and not maxed out

That's only a matter of definition. Trained in a skill is the new mid-point. Focused is maxed out, having a reroll ability is "the new Skill Focus". And while you have the option do this in 3rd edition, it is usually only done to either get a synergy bonus, or to be able to succeed at basic tasks. You also don't have to train to mid-point any more, if it's just the numerical bonus you were interested in.
The only lost option here is being able to perform skill checks trained "cheaply" and relying on your ability bonus for the rest. (I am not saying that this was a bad thing. I certainly enjoyed it when playing Wizards, and I think my DMs didn't mind, either. As a DM, I certainly didn't complain)

- You cannot add a new skill at every level... if you want skills from two classes it is impossible to have your new class skills before level 3.

That's also a detail of the current system. A Star Wars house rule I liked was allowing to pick Skill Training instead of a class feat when multiclassing. Might become a core rule in 4th edition (but I am not promising anything )

I think the options lost are low compared to the things won.

 

[Mokona]

Star Wars Saga Edition skill rules are superior to Dungeons & Dragons skill point buy system. Low level NPCs can be skilled artisans and trained-only skill checks handle the +1/2 level oddities.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Not absolutely. But I think it objectively does.

I'm not sure what this means.

 

[hong]

The sooner people stop thinking in terms of the HEROization of D&D, the better, I say.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

I'm not sure what this means.

AFAICT, it removes the choice that players could be making, even if they don't.

In my play experience, people are always maximizing the most relevant skills (for a wizard, for example, Spellcraft, Knowledge: Arcana and Concentration in this order), and not really caring about other skills. Hence you get those high-level wizards who drown if you drop them in water, or paladins who can't spot anything, etc.

 

[Remathilis]

Hence you get those high-level wizards who drown if you drop them in water, or paladins who can't spot anything, etc.

And we ALL know how useful those dedicated ranks in spellcraft are when tossed overboard or those maxed out ranks in ride are vs an assassin's death strike...

 

[Nifft]

Hence you get those high-level wizards who drown if you drop them in water, or paladins who can't spot anything, etc.

IME, you get Wizards who don't fall because they are always flying, who don't drown because they plane shift to Arboria, who don't fail climb checks (also due to flying).

Armored Paladin? Ring of Water Walking, or Winged Boots.

Basically, high level D&D turns into a super heroes game because it's easier to solve problems with magic than it is to use skills.

If we want to reduce the reliance on magic items, we should also make skills easier to use.

Cheers, -- N