unwilling/hostile mounted combat help

[Killjoy115]

Hi, I was wondering if y'all can help me? I DM a game and one of my players is playing some type of halfling ranger from ebberron that rides around on a dinosaur. He hasn't been hurt at all in the last few combats so I decided to see how he fares without his extreme mobility. I have the party crossing a large body of water in a small boat and have an encounter with sharks and crocs. First couple rounds the party was having some major difficulties then the halfling's player said 'these are medium and large sized right?' one readied action and a missed AoO later, I have the halfling riding one of my sharks and saying that he can use handle animal's 'push' function to get it to attack the other sharks and crocs... caught completely off-guard, I made an excuse to call the session at that point till fri. After like 3 hours of searching books, I can find nothing anywhere about riding hostile mounts nor having them do tricks they don't know by pushing them. Even declaring the creature an unsuitable mount and him taking -5 for bareback, he still has a +12 ride check and 'stay in saddle' DC is only 5...
can someone please point out anything I'm missing in this situation? preferably before friday. Thanks.

 

[delericho]

After like 3 hours of searching books, I can find nothing anywhere about riding hostile mounts

Pretty sure they have to be willing to serve as a mount. Without that, the rules you want are found under "grapple". (Though I don't have a page reference - file under "rules as what-were-you-thinking?")

nor having them do tricks they don't know by pushing them.

Pushing a creature using Handle Animal is a full-round action. Directing a mount that isn't trained for combat is a move action. So, he can't do both at the same time.

 

[Killjoy115]

Is there somewhere that says mounts have to be willing? I couldn't find anything like that. As to the other, doesn't a successful trick check negate the need for a control check? if he succeeds on getting it to attack the creature he want's it to then it would seem all he needs to do is hold on (stay in saddle which isn't an action) while it does so.

 

[delericho]

Is there somewhere that says mounts have to be willing? I couldn't find anything like that.

As I said, I haven't been able to find a page reference. But that really should be simple common sense - see rodeo riders for what happens when you try to ride an unwilling mount.

As to the other, doesn't a successful trick check negate the need for a control check?

Yep, that one looks to be my mistake.

if he succeeds on getting it to attack the creature he want's it to then it would seem all he needs to do is hold on (stay in saddle which isn't an action) while it does so.

Stay in saddle is for when the mount rears or bolts unexpectedly. In general, that's a consequence of the mount getting startled or scared. It's a world away from the case where it wants you off its back and will struggle to get rid of you.

Trust me - I've experienced both.

 

[amerigoV]

On the other hand, it would be rather cool if the PC could "break" a croc and have it as a mount for that scene. Maybe the PC has to best the creature in 3 Riding rolls vs. Will Save of the creature. Note that if the PC gets "thrown" (loses 2 out of the 3) then all bets are off and they are now an appetizer. If the creatures Will save is low, I would give a bonus for it being both Wild and a predator.

 

[Killjoy115]

hmm I hesitate to set that as a precedent cause then any int 1 or 2 creature they happen to come across becomes a potential upgrade to that dino (and that thing's MORE than a handful in it's own right being stronger than the raging barbarian, more agile than the scout, and tougher than the dragon shaman... which is why I don't do encounters with no room to move anymore. him doing full attack with both char and dino is WAY worse than a single ride by attack cause as I understand it, the mount doesn't get to attack on a ride-by) in any case, I think breaking should be a long-term task.

Stay in saddle is for when the mount rears or bolts unexpectedly. In general, that's a consequence of the mount getting startled or scared. It's a world away from the case where it wants you off its back and will struggle to get rid of you.
Trust me - I've experienced both.

that's a good point... maybe it would be fair to increase the DC by the creature's grapple mod (minus the size bonus) to represent how much harder it is to stay on something that isn't happy about having a rider? I did say when I started, 'no house rules' since this is only my 2nd attempt at DMing (the first was a disaster) but I guess I have to since the rules don't seem to cover it anywhere... unless anyone else knows a book that does?

 

[delericho]

that's a good point... maybe it would be fair to increase the DC by the creature's grapple mod (minus the size bonus) to represent how much harder it is to stay on something that isn't happy about having a rider?

That's a really good idea.

 

[Killjoy115]

I suppose that's what I'll do tomorrow then since no one else has pointed me towards anything applicable.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Is there somewhere that says mounts have to be willing?

Page 204 of the DMG.

A mount must be able and willing to carry the rider in a typical fashion. A camel is willing and able. A tiger may be capable but not willing. A giant may be willing but is not truly able.

However, with that being said, I wouldn't say "no" to your player but instead a "Yes, but....". Give each creature something they can do in this struggle. The halfling wants to ride around on the shark. Give him a full round Handle Animal check with a DC 30ish. If he wins 2 (3?) of those checks in a row he can control the shark for that combat. Meanwhile the shark wants to get the halfling into his belly! On the shark's turn have it make a grapple check vs. the halfling's ride check. I may or may not apply size penalty to the ride check. I guess it depends on how close the checks are. If the shark wins the grapple check, the halfling is thrown from the shark. The halfling can start over again if he can get back onto the shark.

Remember that all of this is happening underwater. The halfling should be holding his breath. And the critters in the water can come eat the tasty halfling that's already in the water.

 

[Gilladian]

1. There's a saddle? If not, all his ride/control checks should be at disadvantage. There are reins? If not, then he's at another penalty.
2. The other sharks and crocs are going to be trying to pick this morsel off the back of the first shark.
3. He's going to have a LOT of trouble holding his breath while he's being bucked around. Disadvantage to any breath-holding saves.

If there are saddles and reins on these things, it implies a totally different situation - they're someone's mounts. Whose? Where are they? Either they are nearby, coming back soon to get on their mounts, or the mounts are runaways/strays and soon enough somebody is going to come looking for whoever stole them...