D&D 5E Upcoming OGL-Related Announcement!

This sentiment has been expressed a lot lately, and personally I'm all in favor of it, however one thing makes me suspicious that it will ever happen:

There wasn't an 4E-compatible game made under the OGL.

Now, there were some individual products put out under the OGL that were 4E-compatible (I seem to recall some early fare from Goodman Games), but there was nothing on the level of a 4E-compatible SRD or anything like OSRIC. Simply put, no one seemed to be willing to sink that much effort into such a project.

I hope I'm wrong here, but why should we expect 5E to be any different?
Bluntly put, why would you put in that extra work in order to produce content for the RPG occupying second place? When you could produce content for the RPG in first place and not bother?

A lot will depend on how successful 5E is. If it claws back a lot of market share from Pathfinder, or opens up a vast untapped market of new gamers, I expect the "OGL 5E" route will become attractive. If Pathfinder remains on top, not so much.
 

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That is how every commercial RPG outside the d20 continuum other than 13th Age functions. Those games generally have no fan-made retail product affiliated with them. Certainly, if they do, no one suggests it is in any way reflective of the quality of the official game.

Maybe, but that's a very different world. You can probably fit everyone who has played Dogs in the Vineyard regularly for at least two years on a small island in the Carribean and still have a lot of jungle. Among other things, it's a lot easier to police than a game with millions of continuously active players (and more potential writers).

And games like FATE are OGL, so certainly at least some quite popular non-d20 RPGs feel very confident in not controlling what others do with their game mechanics. There's more diversity out there in this small sphere than you're giving it credit for.

Your assertion was that nothing could stop IP squatters. Regardless of the efficiency of the methods involved, that statement is not true.

You misunderstand my assertion. My assertion was that nothing could legally stop someone from making a D&D-compatible product and selling it. This is not the same as being an "IP squatter" (not even sure what that would actually be?).

Are you speaking from the perspective of a content producer or of a consumer? Because those are two very different positions and I am having trouble following you as a result. Consumers always have the right to vote with their wallets. Content producers do not always have the right to sell elements from someone else's IP because of some community mandate.

The license is a product they are selling to content producers.

Content producers do currently have the right to sell D&D compatible adventures whether or not WotC recognizes that right because game mechanics aren't IP. Most of the things in D&D aren't IP (elves, dwarves, orcs, halflings, dragons, dungeons, tentacled horrors from beyond the stars, creatures from myth and legend and old fiction, heroes saving bystanders from villains with magic and skill, rolling a d20+modifiers vs. a DC, etc., etc....). There's a lot of stuff it couldn't have that would be really useful (trade dress resembling WotC's, likely some specific terminology, mentioning "D&D" anywhere on it, some D&D-specific IP like mind flayers), but nothing strictly necessary. They can do that and have a "shoddy" product all the livelong day.

Content produces can also see a limited license and say "Screw that," and then not work on the game. That's kind of what happened with the GSL. People went and made Pathfinder supplements instead. And consumers responded by buying a hell of a lot of Pathfinder product.

Which means WotC is in a place where its license needs to offer a competitive product to these legitimate options. It can probably do that, but if it tries to too tightly control for "quality," those other things are going to happen, just as they did during 4e (which mostly only saw the latter, and none of the former...though I wonder if that's a "success" in the eyes of some of the GSL's architects...).

That's not even counting the illegitimate options, which in the presence of significant enough authoritarianism and customer discontent are rather inevitable (see: the offline 4e character builder).


You're moving the goalposts. If Wizards opens a curated store, how is that not establishing themselves as the arbiters of quality in D&D supplement design?

Because, as I mentioned in my second post, promoting quality is much different than trying to quash crap. WotC can -- and should, I think! -- do the former. It can't hope to ever 100% effectively do the latter. Encouraging quality and waiting for the DMG are good things, but those weight the scales, they don't prevent problems. If their goal is to absolutely prevent shoddy D&D supplements from coming into being from ardent fans, then they won't meet that goal. If their goal is to encourage quality and favor the good, they totally can, and it'd be a good idea.
 

It may or may not be intentional, but that "and why" is a clear grammatical division. Mearls is not talking about A with B, or even A and B, he's talking about A and then talking about B. This tweet actually suggests to me exactly the opposite of what it suggests to you: that there's a "general" approach for content producers and then there is a "deliberate" approach to publishers. Thing 1 and Thing 2.

Ah, well, in keeping with Morrus' observation, I'm not interested in trying to parse a tweet too finely. That way lies madness. I only mean that while the article seems to almost solely discuss fan-made content, Greg seems to indicate that he thinks Mike is talking more broadly-- not just about fan made content but also publishers. Is it a plan for all at once? Separate plans for each? Who knows. We find out with the DMG release. Maybe we learn more from Mike on twitter as people quiz him, since he's great about answering what he can. But beyond that, I'll do my avoid divining specific details from general observations

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That is kind of my point. Bilsland's tweet was intended to publicize Mearls' article, nothing more.

Dissecting any part of this daily stream of communication is an exercise in futility. Everyone's got their own bias on what they read. If I had a dime for every time someone on this forum quoted a tweet from Mearls, replying, "This means OGL for sure!" or "Looks like the Starter Set will definitely have character generation!" I'd be a rich man.

A tweet is a tweet. It says what it says. No one's trying to hide meaning between words.

I see. Well, then, we agree. My apologies for not being clear. I didn't mean to imply that Greg's tweet suggested the OGL or anything else. Only that they were considering publishers as part of the conversation (despite the lack of mention in the article).

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Content producers do currently have the right to sell D&D compatible adventures whether or not WotC recognizes that right because game mechanics aren't IP.

The harder part is marketing that product. The d20 STL - one can argue whether it worked or not - acted as a "seal of approval/compatibility". It wasn't the OGL that was the thing, it was the safe harbour ability to indicate compatibility via a logo with a guarantee of no challenge.
 

Something that I thought of reading the L&L that I haven't seen commented on is how the original issue on the release of original 3e-compliant product -- where initial rules were often wrong in various products -- would be compounded by the existence of the various playtest documents in the case of 5e and its staggered release if an OGL came out alongside the PHB. Imagine if third parties started designing monsters or adventures based off what they had seen in earlier iterations, not realizing that the MM & DMG would upend key parts of that math based on critiques and flaws found in those same early iterations (we've already heard, for example, that monster hit points have changed across the board from even the last playtest in the final product). Combined with the very real issue that Mearls speaks of *playing* the final game (including likely variations & modules that players will use) the way that players will and that WotC's designers have before designing a full product, lest one hit that problem often faced in early 3e products of some authors making effectively 2e products with d20 numbers and nothing feeling right in the system.

I think that Mearls taking the time out to describe the timeline, and specifically to discuss the idea of an OGL and the plans to integrate third-party and fan desires to design for the system, both is a great sign and is another responsible measure for the brand. With the full product rolling out over August-November, having a November/December announcement of initiatives that will begin in the first part of 2015 isn't the waiting game that we currently imagine that it is, having been so steeped in the process of 5e over the playtests and release news. It's better for WotC and third-parties alike that any OGL-style release is as fully compatible in rules and style as possible (think of how DRAGON and DUNGEON material operates) so as to maximize the chances of new players and DMs using it (rather than seeing it as a knockoff of the brand), so I feel that this is a good plan as far as we've been told -- and being told this much at this point is another sign of the current team's level of respect for the fan community as more than just a source of money.
 

The harder part is marketing that product. The d20 STL - one can argue whether it worked or not - acted as a "seal of approval/compatibility". It wasn't the OGL that was the thing, it was the safe harbour ability to indicate compatibility via a logo with a guarantee of no challenge.

Totally. And I can see WotC having tighter controls on a license that they use to promote particular products, and that being overall very beneficial for curbing the "glut" that people decry about 3e.

If that license isn't hard to produce for and retains sufficient flexibility for 3rd party folks, I'm sure they'll suck up most of the potential grossness and get veto power over it.

Where it might go wrong is if the license, in an effort to make sure quality is produced, is more constrained or limited than folks are interested in producing for in a professional sense. That'll potentially GSL it. I think, taking into account what [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] said above, that this is the more concrete consequence, more likely than a "technically-legal" route. Folks don't HAVE to make D&D-compatible stuff, so if WotC doesn't make it easy for them, they won't. Pathfinder's still selling great.
 

I think that Mearls taking the time out to describe the timeline, and specifically to discuss the idea of an OGL and the plans to integrate third-party and fan desires to design for the system, both is a great sign and is another responsible measure for the brand. With the full product rolling out over August-November, having a November/December announcement of initiatives that will begin in the first part of 2015 isn't the waiting game that we currently imagine that it is, having been so steeped in the process of 5e over the playtests and release news. It's better for WotC and third-parties alike that any OGL-style release is as fully compatible in rules and style as possible (think of how DRAGON and DUNGEON material operates) so as to maximize the chances of new players and DMs using it (rather than seeing it as a knockoff of the brand), so I feel that this is a good plan as far as we've been told -- and being told this much at this point is another sign of the current team's level of respect for the fan community as more than just a source of money.
Where did Mearls discuss the idea of an OGL? He said, "I wanted to take a moment to address a common question we receive about the Open Gaming License and what it means for the future of D&D," and then spent the rest of the column carefully not addressing that question in any way.
 

Maybe, but that's a very different world. You can probably fit everyone who has played Dogs in the Vineyard regularly for at least two years on a small island in the Carribean and still have a lot of jungle. Among other things, it's a lot easier to police than a game with millions of continuously active players (and more potential writers).

What does that have to do with the price of potatoes? I'm not talking about Dogs in the Vineyard, I'm talking about games with actual followings outside the internet echo chamber, like Shadowrun, World of Darkness, Legend of the Five Rings, and the WH40KRPG.

And games like FATE are OGL, so certainly at least some quite popular non-d20 RPGs feel very confident in not controlling what others do with their game mechanics. There's more diversity out there in this small sphere than you're giving it credit for.

I honestly did not know FATE was OGL. It had not intruded on my bubble enough for me to realize that. The entirety of my relationship with FATE is that I have friends who wish they had opportunities to play it, which I guess says good things about its design but not a whole lot for its marketing.

You misunderstand my assertion. My assertion was that nothing could legally stop someone from making a D&D-compatible product and selling it. This is not the same as being an "IP squatter" (not even sure what that would actually be?).

I'll let this one go on semantic grounds, because you're right that your original statement can be read that way.

The license is a product they are selling to content producers.

No it isn't. That's conjecture at this stage.

Content producers do currently have the right to sell D&D compatible adventures whether or not WotC recognizes that right because game mechanics aren't IP.

That may well be the case, but history has clearly shown that when these cases do go to court, the IP owner comes out ahead in the inevitable settlement.

Content produces can also see a limited license and say "Screw that," and then not work on the game. That's kind of what happened with the GSL. People went and made Pathfinder supplements instead. And consumers responded by buying a hell of a lot of Pathfinder product.

Consumers also bought a hell of a lot of D&D4 product. In 3Q 2010 Pathfinder and D&D4 were tied for best selling RPG product. Pathfinder didn't start outselling D&D by a margin until D&D stopped being made.

Which means WotC is in a place where its license needs to offer a competitive product to these legitimate options.

That does not follow!

I see. Well, then, we agree. My apologies for not being clear. I didn't mean to imply that Greg's tweet suggested the OGL or anything else. Only that they were considering publishers as part of the conversation (despite the lack of mention in the article).

Sorry, AD, it wasn't my intention to pick on you, just make a point. Your conclusion was actually logical, I just came to a different and equally logical conclusion. I'm becoming frustrated with all the baseless conjecture around here, epitomized by "character generation support will be available for the Starter Set but I can't tell you more" week.

It will be in the boxed set! Maybe! It will be available online! Maybe! There is going to be an OGL SRD! ...That is a bit of a jump, in the same sense that Earth is a bit wet.
 

Totally. And I can see WotC having tighter controls on a license that they use to promote particular products, and that being overall very beneficial for curbing the "glut" that people decry about 3e.

If that license isn't hard to produce for and retains sufficient flexibility for 3rd party folks, I'm sure they'll suck up most of the potential grossness and get veto power over it.

Where it might go wrong is if the license, in an effort to make sure quality is produced, is more constrained or limited than folks are interested in producing for in a professional sense. That'll potentially GSL it. I think, like [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] said, that this is the more concrete consequence, more likely than a "technically-legal" route. Folks don't HAVE to make D&D-compatible stuff, so if WotC doesn't make it easy for them, they won't. Pathfinder's still selling great.

I have that same fear--even I, as a "fan" who hasn't published anything yet, would rather write my first publicly-posted adventure for Pathfinder with full freedom, than D&D with a too-restrictive license where I have to worry about whether I can sell it or whatever.

Having said that, it seems WotC's corporate intelligence has risen as of late, and they seem to understand what they need to do to compete with Pathfinder (which so far has been to pretty much do what Pathfinder does, but with the D&D brand behind it).
 

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