Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow (merged)

[Kitsunekaboom]

I don't like the .pdf format in the first place, Acrobat isn't exactly the most friendly piece of software I've ever had on my computer. It doesn't tend to play well with others. (Blasted public education...) I also hate the idea of having to register every computer I wish to use a product on with Adobe. I don't like registering software period because frankly, it's no one's business once I purchase the product.

Making pdfs more inconvenient isn't going to make me want to buy more of them. I have been known to purchase ebooks from time to time. I also frequently back up my system (re: everything on my system) due to a slight paranoia with previous backups not functioning. What's the point of buying an electronic product I can't back up as much as I do everything else on my system?

It also seems a bit more expensive than RPGNow for the most part. I haven't looked through the whole site however, mostly because the site is pathetically slow and I do have other things to do with my time.

This new site won't be getting my business full stop. There's just no reason to give it to them. (And I happen to like White Wolf quite a lot, so it's kinda sad really).

Just noticed something in the Line of Sight article mentioned in the post above me; "You won't be able to make copies of the file and email them to your friends, but I suspect the vast majority of you weren't doing that anyway."

Okay, so if most of the people who bought these products were not suspected of this then why is this necessary? Seems kinda silly to say that in this situation.

 

[DaveStebbins]

I don't like the dig towards RPGNow placed in the press releases. Both the Malhavoc and Fiery Dragon sites describe DTRPG with the same phrase, "DriveThruRPG.com is the first completely professional gaming e-Book site..."

That seems to me like a bit of a low-class blow for two publishers I respect so much.

-Dave
"Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use." --Emily Post (1873-1960) etiquette expert

 

[NeghVar]

Deamoclese,

Didn't see the Canadian location in your profile mate...my apologies.

As noted accurately by others, I am unaffected by the DMCA... I should note that I did this to see how hard/easy it was, not to file share it... and yes, file sharing laws in Canada are close to nonexistant. (In short, the law only states that you can only share files with individuals on the internet that you "know" ... obviously a huge loophole and there's no current attempts to close this loophole).

The only hard part in cracking the file was the time spent google searching it... once I found it, I was amazed how little I actually had to do.

As another note, I have no intention of buying any more pdfs from this atrocious site... the fact that they are basically making me pay to "rent" the pdf under their strict rules is too much of a slap in the face (I don't technically own the product cus I have to read it off them).

I own (bought) all of Malhavoc's products except Chaositech... I have no plans to purchase any more of their books in print or pdf until they put this nonsense behind - I find it to be a horribly rude business practice.. I'll have to manage without Malhavoc and the other publishers/comapnies on drivethrurpg.

I hope this whole system of theirs dies quickly.

 

[Rasyr]

I don't like the dig towards RPGNow placed in the press releases. Both the Malhavoc and Fiery Dragon sites describe DTRPG with the same phrase, "DriveThruRPG.com is the first completely professional gaming e-Book site..."

That seems to me like a bit of a low-class blow for two publishers I respect so much.

Well, I am sure that you can blame that part on White Wolf, errr... I mean DriveThruRPG since they obviously wrote that portion of it.

You would also do well to remember that RPGhost from RPGNow has already stated that White Wolf tried to buy RPGHost as while back. Also that the same people who own White Wolf also own Publishing Services, Inc, which in turn owns DriveThruRPG.

While there are a few others that have exclusive contract with DTRPG (all the contracts with DTRPG are exclusive so that publishers are NOT ALLOWED to sell PDFs anyplace else), it is important to also note that every single company published under S&SS is a customer of DTRPG. Makes you wonder if that had anything to do with those companies signing up with DTRPG. Although I am sure that they will all deny it. As for those not under the S&SS banner - who knows why.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I'm not going to punish Monte by not purchacing print products for his Line of Sight article. It seems that WW has put a contractual obligations on all their print lines to use their (if the same people own something it is basicly the same company) new pdf distribuion company and standards, made even more certain in my mind by all of the parties refusing to answer this question in any way. Now since Monte is probably required to use this new company he realy only has one choice and that is to put the best face forward and embrace what he has to work with. Just imagine the reaction that would come about if he even slighly hinted he wasn't happy with the araingement. He would be quoted left and right to show how bad the new system is. Many people respect his opinion and many of them would be even more inclined to boycot DTRPG costing him even more sales. Any hint by Monte that that he was forced into this against his will could also cost him his print distributer as WW might be inclined to drop him for breaking contracts and costing them sales. No company in their right mind will publicly critize even a bad descion of theirs until such time as the writing is on the wall and the decision to change course has already been made since to do otherwise only insures that failure will follow. No, Monte is a good guy and is only doing what is best for Malhavoc so I don't want to punish him. This doesn't mean I support DRM and DTRPG or will ever buy something from them, just that the real culprit in my mind is WW and not the independant companies they distribute. If I am wrong and DTRPG is succesful Monte looks good in his choice, if DTRPG fails, as I suspect it will, we will likely hear the real story then.

 

[BSF]

*sigh*

I've been looking through the drivethrurpg.com site and I am ambivalent at best about the majority of products offered. There are a few things I would have an interest in picking up, if it weren't for the prices. FFG has their products online and most of them are things I can get cheaper in print. Why would I want to buy a PDF that I cannot show my friends without printing out at a more expensive price?

I do see some nice OOP products that would be nifty to pick up. However, I will need to upgrade my Acrobat Reader, register it with Adobe (something I loath), or I can use a .NET password (Something I loath even more than Adobe) and then I can start shopping. While I like many of Adobe's products, and I use many MS products, I do not receive any real added value using their registrations. *shrug* That's just me though.

So, what I am looking at is enforced upgrades of Adobe Reader, which requires uninstalling previous versions and downloading the latest across my modem. I need to choose between the lesser of two evils to register my right to use the protected PDF. Then I can download and use the product. Once I have it downloaded, I can back it up using the built-in feature of Acrobat Reader, which is a different process than backing up my hard drive. To actually read it, I need to register every computer that I want to use it with. Now, at various times I have had FreeBSD, Redhat Linux, Solaris, SCO Unixware, Windows NT, Windows 95, Windows 98, etc. installed at my house. I have also had different Palm OS devices and am considering looking at a couple of new versions of OS's. I'm probably not your "average user", but I am not all that unique either. In short, it will become a hassle for me to be able to use my PDF's.

Let's see, go through a hassle to pick up some old stuff just because I think it is neat, even though I would be lucky to get to play it once every couple of years. Hmm, not that appealing. Now, the stuff I find more interesting is the non-OOP stuff. Unfortunately, many of those publishers haven't figured out the economics. Malhavoc's stuff is still priced in a manner that I can choose to print it out without spending too much on the printing. But, for something like FFG's stuff, I can buy it in print format cheaper than I can from DrivethruRPG.com. But, even now, I will need to go through the hassle of registering DRM to use any Malhavoc PDF's. It might happen.

I'm not going to predict doom and gloom. Perhaps this will be the kick that the market needs to gather steam and broader acceptance. But, I think I will stick with RPGNow.com. They have good, interesting products as well. I've never had a problem with their customer service. The PDF's I buy there are portable across multiple machines & OS's without too much hassle for me. I'll check back at DrivethruRPG.com from time to time, but there won't be any impulse buys until somebody puts out a product that is so compelling that I must have the PDF. As much as I like the work of some of the imprints/publishers, there is a pretty steep barrier to make me register to use DRM.

 

[Dark Psion]

I don't like the dig towards RPGNow placed in the press releases. Both the Malhavoc and Fiery Dragon sites describe DTRPG with the same phrase, "DriveThruRPG.com is the first completely professional gaming e-Book site..."

That seems to me like a bit of a low-class blow for two publishers I respect so much.

-Dave
"Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use." --Emily Post (1873-1960) etiquette expert

That was what really pissed me off before I made my previous post.

*Sigh* and I was so looking forward to Hyperconsciuosness and Beyond Countless Doorways.
Will I buy the print version at the end of the year?

Depends, by then there will be a lot more reviews, good or bad and I would have bought the Psionic book pdf. the second it was available.

Now, I will just wait and see.

 

[fanboy2000]

A few facts

This thread seems short on facts and long on fears and philosophical debate

Here's what I found.

I downloaded the free adventure. To do so, I had to register with DTRPG (duh) and Adobe. I didn't need to register for a MSN Passport (although, there is an option to do, and use that instead).

Once you register with DTRPG, there's a link at the top of the home page so you can activate DRM on that computer.

I oppened the file, no problems. Looks like a pdf and can be saved as one. It seems you can copy the file on your computer as much as you want. (A warning comes up, saying that you can't modify the file, but I don't think that's posible with just Acrobat reader anyways.) You can make as many back-up files as you want. (DTRPG even uses backing the file up to a CD as an example on its FAQ).

I copied the file from my Mac to my Windows machine via my home network. When I went to open the file, Acrobat went through a bunch of stuff, conecting to the internet and such. Then it said I hadn't activated DRM on that computer and sent me to their website and I had to sign in with my Adobe acount (but said that MSN passport was prefered). Once I signed in, I got the "We couldn't detect Acrobat 6.0 on your computer, are you sure you have it? If yes, click here." I got this on my Mac, which is to be expected, but WinXP? Clicking the link activated the DRM and both my computer are now listed with on Adobe's website as being DRM activated. I expect them to call me anyday now to tatto 666 me.

Once it was opened, I didn't need to be connected to the internet.

Acording to DTRPG you can print an unlimited number of copies. And you can view them on any computer you register with the Satan's minon . . . oops I ment Adobe.

The biggest restriction, by far is copy and past. You can copy 10 selections or 10 pages every 10 days. I'm not sure how much of a hiderance this is to people. Last time I did a lot of copy and pasting, it was spells from the various Eldritch books. I don't know if that would have gone over the limit or not. Sence it refreshes every 10 days, it not like you won't be able to copy text years after you buy it. But, if you have a lot of text you need to copy from a file for a game this week, you could be hosed.

I would suggest two things for DTRPG.

1. Make it so the customer only nedds to register on your website. To use the file on another computer, make it so that the customer can enter a password to access the file without having access to the internet.

2. Lift the copy and paste restriction. DMs like my self don't print the whole product, we copy and paste what we like into word processors that contain house rules for our game. For example, I make PDFs of my campaign setting for my players and print it out for them, so they have something to refer to.

 

[johnsemlak]

2. Lift the copy and paste restriction. DMs like my self don't print the whole product, we copy and paste what we like into word processors that contain house rules for our game. For example, I make PDFs of my campaign setting for my players and print it out for them, so they have something to refer to.

Monte has suggested that he and other publishrs may get the site to relax that feature. Hopefully, that will happen.

 

[Mercule]

In the intrest of fairness, you might want to email Malhavoc and tell them exactly how you found it. If its a security risk to their welbeing they deserve to know.

Or not, since the only way I'd consider downloading a DRM file is if I knew I could crack it. Of course, I'm not likely to purchase an uncracked PDF, in the first place. Nor am I likely to share them with anyone -- I'm a software developer, so I understand the idea of loss from piracy.

PDF is for out-of-print material, previews, freebies, and start-ups, IMHO. If you're putting out your current material in PDF, it's an open advertisement that you're still not established or stable. Anyway, that's the message it sends me. But that's a rant for another time.

PDF has it's place, it just isn't ready for prime time. For instance, I'd take the free copy of Exalted, which is a book I wouldn't even pay $3 for when my NSFLGS went out of business last year.

But, to top it off, it requires you get MS Passport! I don't think so.

I'm pretty much a Microsoft fanboy. I program ASP.NET, VB.NET, MS Access; use MS Office for all my needs, including Outlook for email; prefer IE to any other browser; love WinXP; and promote all of the above. Passport, though, is a wretched little bastard that should be fed to the clown in the sewers. It says a lot to have a technology that even your fans hate.