Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow (merged)

[Kesh]

I'll just be (possibly the first) one to say, I'm planning on buying products from this site. I've been registered with Adobe for a long time now, so this isn't a problem for me. Products that are overpriced will be ignored, stuff that's in my budget will be bought. I expecially like seeing the older White Wolf products and current GoO products on there.

It's really no more trouble than any other product I've purchased online. Software registrations, anyone?

 

[johnsemlak]

All right, I've tried to defend Monte Cook, and the new site, and gotten attacked for it.

One thing I'll ask: A lot of people complain that there is no benefit for the consumer in this change. That's certainly true on the face of it, and I don't think Monte says otherwise. Some people have implied above that Monte is trying to say that he is doing this for the benefit of customers. I don't read it that way.

But what's wrong with DriveThruRPG and the publishers who sign on trying to enable some protections to their property? If it makes sense for their business, what's wrong with it? Malhavoc Press or any other publisher aren't obliged to provide unprotected PDFs if it makes better business sense to do otherwise.

Considering the widespread illegal trading of PDF files on the net, I think it's reasonable to do something to protect theft.

I don't know how effective this method will be. I don't see anyone offering better solutions. (EDIT: OK, that's not true but still, I don't think anyone knows a definite solution)

I certainly don't buy the argument that it will be ineffective because the DRM can be easily cracked. A lot of people won't bother to do even the 15 minute google-search. Anyway, it's not about preventing copyright theft, it's about reducing it, which may (or may not) have a positive effect on the site's and the publishers' revenue.

Regarding the problems with registering and sharing informtation wiht Adobe and what not, that may be a legitimate concern. I went ahead and did what was necessary to get the free PDF; I don't think it will have any negative consequences to me and I'm fine with it. Others clearly are not, but I guess that's the choice people have to make.

This issue is generating a lot of negative feeling and that obviously might lead to publishers on DrivethruRPG loosing customers, but I'm still not sure. I think some people complaining now will see one of Malhavoc's later cool releases, like Beyond Countless Doorways, and decide to go ahead and purchase it and download it despite the restrictions. If not, people can choose to buy the print versions, buy other companys' PDFs, or simply not to buy anything. Nobody's forcing anything on anybody.

Another thing to mention is that DriveThruRPG is selling print products previously unavailabe in PDF format. That's certainly a good thing.

 

[RCanning]

I don't really have a problem with DRM as a form of protection, except that it strips 90% of the value from the PDF. I am sick of paying 2-3x what the US pays for product (after converting costs) and RPGNow was a way around that. Now that printing is no longer really possible (I don't own a good quality colour laser printer, and I can't print anywhere that does) PDF product is too pricey with DRM.

I can live with having to register. I can live with having to backup using Acrobat Reader. I don't yet know for certain if I have to be online to use the PDF, but if I do, that is a deal killer. I know I can't print on a printer I don't own, and that is a deal killer.

All of my concerns come from not being able to print them at work anymore; and not being able to print from a printing outlet. These are the deal killers.

DRM sucks not because I can't give stuff to my friends (which I did not do anyway); it sucks because I can't use the material I purchase to full effect. I have photo quality printers at work, and can't use them....!!!!

Richard Canning

 

[Elephant]

But what's wrong with DriveThruRPG and the publishers who sign on trying to enable some protections to their property? If it makes sense for their business, what's wrong with it? Malhavoc Press or any other publisher aren't obliged to provide unprotected PDFs if it makes better business sense to do otherwise.

What's wrong is that it does a great disservice to their customers. As a potential customer, I don't care whether they feel more secure by selling crippled products. I won't buy the crippled products. It's bad for me, which means that it's ultimately bad for them.

 

[ToddSchumacher]

*Snip*

I have photo quality printers at work, and can't use them....!!!!

Richard Canning

Are you really supposed to be using them for RPG stuff anyway?

 

[johnsemlak]

What's wrong is that it does a great disservice to their customers. As a potential customer, I don't care whether they feel more secure by selling crippled products. I won't buy the crippled products. It's bad for me, which means that it's ultimately bad for them.

There's another way to view that. Monte could be viewed as doing a service for making is products available in PDF format at all. Many publishers only offer print products. Monte Cook offers nearly all his products in print and digital. If you don't like crippled PDFs, buy the print versions.

IMO, offering a product, with some limitations for security, is not a disservice. It is in fact still a service. You can choose to buy it or not.

 

[marketingman]

There is nothing wrong with them starting a business, That how it works people see a need feel they can profit from it and fill the gap. There by hoping for profit. After all that is business.

It just gamers are resistant to change and are protective of thier"games" People who strive to break inot markets are always attacked and hate by a vocal minority. After all there are far more lurkers then poster on this subject. No lets go back and see who has multiple post on this thread now lets devivide that by the number of views and it will be well under 10 percent possibliy has low has 3 percent.

Time for some more coco.

 

[marketingman]

Quick numbers crunch.
This site will reach 2.5 percent at post 211

The poll will you buy from DTRPG will reach 5 percent at post 78

 

[darklight]

johnsemlak said:

There's another way to view that. Monte could be viewed as doing a service for making is products available in PDF format at all. Many publishers only offer print products. Monte Cook offers nearly all his products in print and digital. If you don't like crippled PDFs, buy the print versions.

Thats not really the point though, you are correct that this is still a service, but it is a lesser service than what is was before (on rpgNow) without any benifit to the consumer, and most likely no benifit for the publisher either.

johnsemlak also stated:

I certainly don't buy the argument that it will be ineffective because the DRM can be easily cracked. A lot of people won't bother to do even the 15 minute google-search. Anyway, it's not about preventing copyright theft, it's about reducing it, which may (or may not) have a positive effect on the site's and the publishers' revenue.

This argument is flawed. No, most people probably wont bother finding a way to crack it, but the ones who are interested in sharing it certainly will, which means it will have no effect whatsoever in reducing piracy. Instead all it does is reduce the usefulness for the legitimate consumer, in turn probably affecting sales negatively, so it will most likely have a negative effect on the site's and publisher's revenue.

In fact I'm amazed that the people behind DriveThruRPG haven't learned anything from the music, film and software markets. It seems evident that the attempts at copyprotection in these markets have had no impact on the amount of piracy, so why bother? This is exactly the attitude Warner Brothers took when releasing Matrix: Reloaded, as I mentioned earlier. Besides, the numbers I've seen on the sales of cd's in the UK show that piracy has not affected sales negatively, in fact the number of cd albums sold in 2003 was the highest ever in the UK! The only benifit DriveThruRPG might get from using DRM, is luring more publishers into the pdf field, by proposing a percieved security. This is definitely positive, but if the sales are low due to people refusing to buy DRM-crippled pdf's, it might actually have a negative effect, causing publishers to leave the pdf field.


darklight

 

[Bloodstone Press]

I don't know how effective this method will be. I don't see anyone offering better solutions.

I think a better solution would be for the publishers to offer added value to those who buy the product legitimately. Rather than punishing everyone for the transgressions of a few, we should offer rewards to those who play by the rules. As I mentioned in another thread on this topic, positive reinforcement rather that mass negative reinforcement.

Specifically, publishers should update their books regularly and offer these updates free to anyone who bought the original. If you've got a pirated copy, you don't get anything else unless you pirate that too.

most people probably wont bother finding a way to crack it, but the ones who are interested in sharing it certainly will, which means it will have no effect whatsoever in reducing piracy. Instead all it does is reduce the usefulness for the legitimate consumer, in turn probably affecting sales negatively, so it will most likely have a negative effect on the site's and publisher's revenue.

I agree. I'm reminded of a comment I frequently make in political discussions:
"Criminals, by definition, don't obey the law."