Sir Whiskers
First Post
undeaddan said:
Many thanks. There's a lot of passion (which I share) on this subject.
Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow (merged)
- Thread starter Psion
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Many thanks. There's a lot of passion (which I share) on this subject.
Prime_Evil
Adventurer
Joshua Randall said:[/font]
Listen up, all you smug software pirates: you have driven Malhavoc into using Digital Rights Management to protect their assets. Next time you are blithely stealing someone's intellectual property, reasoning that 'no one gets hurt', think about everyone on this thread who will be inconvenienced by the shift to DRM.
But you Internet thieves never bother to think about anything other than yourselves, do you?
Gotta love trollbait.....
Prime_Evil
Adventurer
I find it interesting that White Wolf is the parent company behind the implementation of DRM at DriveThruRPG.
Recently, I have started to realize that White Wolf has an ambivalent attitude towards other people's intellectual property rights.
White Wolf is quite happy to produce d20 material in-house under its Sword & Sorcery imprint (thus benefiting financially from the immense generosity of WoTC) but uses various means to cripple the re-use of the OGL material within these books, effectively undermining the spirit of the d20 license.
Take the recent Relics & Rituals: Excalibur book as an example. This volume clearly displays the d20 logo on the back cover and the fine print on the bottom of the title page indicates that it is published under the d20 system license, yet it does not contain the text of the d20 license in the legal appendix at the back of the book. This places it in direct breach of the terms of the d20 license (which is a legally binding contract).
Furthermore, placing the d20 logo on the back cover that does not meet the terms of the d20 system license clearly infringes upon a trademark owned by WoTC.
The legal appendix does contain the complete text of the Open Game License, but this alone does not meet the legal requirements for a legitimate d20 publication. If you don't believe me, go and read the terms of the license over at the WoTC website.
The Designation of Open Game Content in the legal appendix of this book indicates that the entirety of the text contained within the volume is open game content, with the exception of a couple of names and descriptions. (Never mind that some of these terms -- such as daoine sidhe -- may already be in the public domain by virtue of their appearance in the mythology of the British Isles)
The Designation of Product Identity is then used to 'cripple' the OGC, stating that the following items are not OGC, but rather Product Identity as defined in Section 1(e) of the OGL:
"any specific characters, monsters, creatures and places; original names of places, artifacts, characters, races, countries, creatures, geographic locations, gods, historic events, magic items, organizations, spells, feats, and abilities; any and all stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, and dialogue; all artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, illustrations, maps and cartography, likenesses, poses, symbols or graphic elements".
It is an interesting mental exercise to sit down and work out what is actually left as OGC once you have removed *everything* in the book that is covered by this statement.
I believe that this volume clearly fails the requirement to *clearly* indicate which portions of the text are OGC and which are Product Identity. I get the feeling that the publisher is using deliberate obfuscation to ensure that it is impossible to extract ANY useable OGC from the book.
Just in case anybody missed the point, the legal appendix also points out that:
"All contents of this book, regardless of designation, are copyrighted in the year 2004 by White Wolf Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction or use without the written permission of the publisher is expressly forbidden, except for the purpose of review or use of OGC consistent with the OGL"
I feel that this kind of 'crippleware' defeats the spirit of the d20 license.
I have always thought that one of the neatest things about the license was the requirement that companies that profit from the license commercially must give something back to the gaming community.
Just a thought....
Recently, I have started to realize that White Wolf has an ambivalent attitude towards other people's intellectual property rights.
White Wolf is quite happy to produce d20 material in-house under its Sword & Sorcery imprint (thus benefiting financially from the immense generosity of WoTC) but uses various means to cripple the re-use of the OGL material within these books, effectively undermining the spirit of the d20 license.
Take the recent Relics & Rituals: Excalibur book as an example. This volume clearly displays the d20 logo on the back cover and the fine print on the bottom of the title page indicates that it is published under the d20 system license, yet it does not contain the text of the d20 license in the legal appendix at the back of the book. This places it in direct breach of the terms of the d20 license (which is a legally binding contract).
Furthermore, placing the d20 logo on the back cover that does not meet the terms of the d20 system license clearly infringes upon a trademark owned by WoTC.
The legal appendix does contain the complete text of the Open Game License, but this alone does not meet the legal requirements for a legitimate d20 publication. If you don't believe me, go and read the terms of the license over at the WoTC website.
The Designation of Open Game Content in the legal appendix of this book indicates that the entirety of the text contained within the volume is open game content, with the exception of a couple of names and descriptions. (Never mind that some of these terms -- such as daoine sidhe -- may already be in the public domain by virtue of their appearance in the mythology of the British Isles)
The Designation of Product Identity is then used to 'cripple' the OGC, stating that the following items are not OGC, but rather Product Identity as defined in Section 1(e) of the OGL:
"any specific characters, monsters, creatures and places; original names of places, artifacts, characters, races, countries, creatures, geographic locations, gods, historic events, magic items, organizations, spells, feats, and abilities; any and all stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, and dialogue; all artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, illustrations, maps and cartography, likenesses, poses, symbols or graphic elements".
It is an interesting mental exercise to sit down and work out what is actually left as OGC once you have removed *everything* in the book that is covered by this statement.
I believe that this volume clearly fails the requirement to *clearly* indicate which portions of the text are OGC and which are Product Identity. I get the feeling that the publisher is using deliberate obfuscation to ensure that it is impossible to extract ANY useable OGC from the book.
Just in case anybody missed the point, the legal appendix also points out that:
"All contents of this book, regardless of designation, are copyrighted in the year 2004 by White Wolf Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction or use without the written permission of the publisher is expressly forbidden, except for the purpose of review or use of OGC consistent with the OGL"
I feel that this kind of 'crippleware' defeats the spirit of the d20 license.
I have always thought that one of the neatest things about the license was the requirement that companies that profit from the license commercially must give something back to the gaming community.
Just a thought....
Yair
Community Supporter
This tactic is also shared by Malhavoc Press. In the Book of Eldrtich Might (I), for example, the OGC declaration reads something like (serf's parma):Prime_Evil said:
"... all material wholly derived from the d20 SRD is OGC."
Again, it is unclear (thus breaching the OGL), possibly impossible legally (the OGL states any material derived from OGC must be OGC, not just material *wholly* derived from OGC), and makes it practically impossible to determine what is OGC. Are spell names OGC? Surely they are not "wholly derived from the SRD"...
If I had lots of money, I would convince Hasbaro to pursue litigation for not being clear. That irks me the most.
I find it telling that this strategy is shared by (IMHO) the two greatest supporters of the move to DRM.
Henry
Autoexreginated
I am not a lawyer, but I had a couple of comments on your comments:
Actually, to my knowledge inserting the d20 STL license is not part of the requirement; only the trademark, the "This product requires" boilerplate in no larger than 12 point font, staying away from the prohibited subjects, and abiding by the quality standards. Only the OGL makes a requirement of the license, and the product must be OGL if it's part of the d20 STL anyway.
Not to dissuade you, but it does seem reasonably clear to me: basically, anything that is not a mechanic is protected property. With that statement, they released the MECHANICS to their feats, spells, etc. But not the names to such. According to that text, if it's a mechanic, it's open; if it's not a mechanic, it's not.
Prime_Evil said:
Actually, to my knowledge inserting the d20 STL license is not part of the requirement; only the trademark, the "This product requires" boilerplate in no larger than 12 point font, staying away from the prohibited subjects, and abiding by the quality standards. Only the OGL makes a requirement of the license, and the product must be OGL if it's part of the d20 STL anyway.
Not to dissuade you, but it does seem reasonably clear to me: basically, anything that is not a mechanic is protected property. With that statement, they released the MECHANICS to their feats, spells, etc. But not the names to such. According to that text, if it's a mechanic, it's open; if it's not a mechanic, it's not.
Goddess FallenAngel
Explorer
I found something interesting in the welcome letter from my account at DriveThruRPG:
Umm... Does this mean that they are collecting email addresses and automatically creating accounts for people?...DriveThruRPG said:
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PatrickLawinger
First Post
Wow, so much vitriol it is hard to know what to say. Apparently any publisher that is associated with DTRPG is evil, and, equally apparent, anyone associated with such a publisher is also evil (though in some cases only slightly evil, or just stupid). Here are a few thoughts from an apparently evil person. Keep in mind, I don’t necessarily agree with everything below, but I know this is how some people view things.
Why are they using DRM, it is so easy to crack by pirates anyway?
Many print publishers feel that they have to show they are making an effort to defend their copyrighted material. If an ordinary .pdf ends up on Kazaa or some other P2P network, the originator can say, “Damn, really sorry man, I just was sharing some files with people at work (friends, or whatever) and I didn’t realize I marked that folder as “public.” No publisher wants to look like the big ugly, mean, nasty when they send a letter to an internet provider/host trying to shut someone down, or when threatening to sue (something I doubt most publishers would ever bother with). A .pdf or other electronic file that has some sort of protection is a bit different. Someone has to deliberately crack it before freely giving it away. This shows intent. It is hard to make someone believe that you have enough computer knowledge to crack a file, yet open a file to a P2P network by “mistake.” The publisher is going to feel a lot more justified in sending threatening letters to ISPs and individuals in such a case. They also have a stronger case in court, if anything were ever to go to court, because they can say they took deliberate steps to safeguard their material.
As for why DRM was chosen, I honestly don’t know. I am pretty certain if they didn’t choose some manner of protection a majority of the books you see up on their site would not be there. Frankly, I don’t think there are any “good” systems out for protection of electronic files (not true, there are, but not for something you are selling/distributing). I could be wrong, but I don’t think any publisher has illusions about whether or not DRM can be “cracked” but they do want to show that they are making an effort to protect their material.
Why did all these publishers go with DTRPG?
Obviously, I can’t answer for other people and don’t know the exact reasons some people might have chosen DTRPG. I do know that Clark Peterson of Necromancer Games has clearly given his reasons for our company going with them. DTRPG provided services that we didn’t get anywhere else. They took pre-print layout files and turned them into downloadable pdfs. This is not something that is trivial, we looked into this when Tomb of Abysthor went out of print because fans were begging for an electronic release. We don’t have the manpower to devote to creating the pdf, checking it, and then taking care of distribution. The people involved with DTRPG are well-liked and trusted by other people in the RPG industry, if not on these message boards.
Forcing DRM down people’s throats?!
Hey, we aren’t. If you don’t want it, don’t buy it. We can’t please everyone all of the time. Will adjustments be made? Considering the company and releases are not even a week old yet, I am sure that you’ll see price adjustments as well as other adjustments. Bill Webb at Necromancer Games has had emails from people in countries like Saudi Arabia (where it is REALLY difficult to get gaming material) as well as a few other places where import costs and availability were onerous. Necro views the electronic releases as a way to reach some customers we couldn’t reach before. From our view, we are allowing more customers access to our products now, even though some people are complaining about it. We aren’t taking anything away from you, in fact we have added to product availability, if you don’t want it, don’t buy it.
Remember, this message board has a sub-group of the internet using gamers that happens to be very computer literate and devoted to electronic products and tools. The majority of people that the DTRPG releases are aimed at aren’t going to be inconvenienced by DRM. Are some, yes. Will we lose that sale? Yes, probably. But, then again, we never had a chance at that sale before anyway because we aren’t a .pdf publisher and, until a few days ago, didn’t have any electronic releases (barring free downloads of course). Personally, I think it is harder to copy/paste and print on different computers with our print products than it is with a DRM electronic file but maybe I am wrong.
While I don’t personally like DRM, I don’t think you are going to see it go away. If you want to see .pdfs for print products that are made directly from the layouts sent to the printer, you are going to have to deal with copy protection of some type. Right now, that appears to be DRM.
PS. While I have used comments from people at Necromancer Games for some of the information above, this post should not be considered as coming from Necromancer Games. Information from Bill Webb and Clark Peterson used above is available on other public message boards, including the Necromancer Games forums.
Why are they using DRM, it is so easy to crack by pirates anyway?
Many print publishers feel that they have to show they are making an effort to defend their copyrighted material. If an ordinary .pdf ends up on Kazaa or some other P2P network, the originator can say, “Damn, really sorry man, I just was sharing some files with people at work (friends, or whatever) and I didn’t realize I marked that folder as “public.” No publisher wants to look like the big ugly, mean, nasty when they send a letter to an internet provider/host trying to shut someone down, or when threatening to sue (something I doubt most publishers would ever bother with). A .pdf or other electronic file that has some sort of protection is a bit different. Someone has to deliberately crack it before freely giving it away. This shows intent. It is hard to make someone believe that you have enough computer knowledge to crack a file, yet open a file to a P2P network by “mistake.” The publisher is going to feel a lot more justified in sending threatening letters to ISPs and individuals in such a case. They also have a stronger case in court, if anything were ever to go to court, because they can say they took deliberate steps to safeguard their material.
As for why DRM was chosen, I honestly don’t know. I am pretty certain if they didn’t choose some manner of protection a majority of the books you see up on their site would not be there. Frankly, I don’t think there are any “good” systems out for protection of electronic files (not true, there are, but not for something you are selling/distributing). I could be wrong, but I don’t think any publisher has illusions about whether or not DRM can be “cracked” but they do want to show that they are making an effort to protect their material.
Why did all these publishers go with DTRPG?
Obviously, I can’t answer for other people and don’t know the exact reasons some people might have chosen DTRPG. I do know that Clark Peterson of Necromancer Games has clearly given his reasons for our company going with them. DTRPG provided services that we didn’t get anywhere else. They took pre-print layout files and turned them into downloadable pdfs. This is not something that is trivial, we looked into this when Tomb of Abysthor went out of print because fans were begging for an electronic release. We don’t have the manpower to devote to creating the pdf, checking it, and then taking care of distribution. The people involved with DTRPG are well-liked and trusted by other people in the RPG industry, if not on these message boards.
Forcing DRM down people’s throats?!
Hey, we aren’t. If you don’t want it, don’t buy it. We can’t please everyone all of the time. Will adjustments be made? Considering the company and releases are not even a week old yet, I am sure that you’ll see price adjustments as well as other adjustments. Bill Webb at Necromancer Games has had emails from people in countries like Saudi Arabia (where it is REALLY difficult to get gaming material) as well as a few other places where import costs and availability were onerous. Necro views the electronic releases as a way to reach some customers we couldn’t reach before. From our view, we are allowing more customers access to our products now, even though some people are complaining about it. We aren’t taking anything away from you, in fact we have added to product availability, if you don’t want it, don’t buy it.
Remember, this message board has a sub-group of the internet using gamers that happens to be very computer literate and devoted to electronic products and tools. The majority of people that the DTRPG releases are aimed at aren’t going to be inconvenienced by DRM. Are some, yes. Will we lose that sale? Yes, probably. But, then again, we never had a chance at that sale before anyway because we aren’t a .pdf publisher and, until a few days ago, didn’t have any electronic releases (barring free downloads of course). Personally, I think it is harder to copy/paste and print on different computers with our print products than it is with a DRM electronic file but maybe I am wrong.
While I don’t personally like DRM, I don’t think you are going to see it go away. If you want to see .pdfs for print products that are made directly from the layouts sent to the printer, you are going to have to deal with copy protection of some type. Right now, that appears to be DRM.
PS. While I have used comments from people at Necromancer Games for some of the information above, this post should not be considered as coming from Necromancer Games. Information from Bill Webb and Clark Peterson used above is available on other public message boards, including the Necromancer Games forums.
BryonD
Hero
Henry said:
That is certainly how I (also IANAL) see it.
You know, a really good way to grow the industry would be to start making more stuff available for free. Just start copying all of the open mechanics, doing the section 15 right, and posting it for free. A lot of people who either can't or won't spend the money would then gain access to this material and the fan base would grow. And growing the fan base is the big picture.
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