Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow (merged)

[dsfriii]

I have been following this issue a bit. I know it will not impact me because I do not buy PDF, (only because I find it cheaper in the long run to buy printed material, plus I am old fashion).

But all you can do is vote with your money. If enough people do not buy the product they will change. But if enough people do maybe there is a market for the the product. This fitting back and forth will get us no where.

 

[The Sigil]

Everyone defending DTRPG seems intent to paint the flood of complaints here are baseless vitriol, whining and noise, and also painting themselves as innocent victims. Get off that horse while it's still standing, please.

Practically nobody is is saying DTRPG is evil as such. What they (and I) *are* saying is that the current form of DRM used is stupid, counterproductive and ethically questionable. Why? Everyone has their own reasons, but the most common complaints are:

As posted elsewhere, let me add:

*DRM takes away the Right of First Sale from and provides no counter-benefit to the legitimate purchaser.

(And in a rather distasteful way, arguing that it is done for "reasons of copyright protection" when it is copyright law itself that provides the Right of First Sale. It's similar to invoking the "right to a speedy trial" to justify dragging out court proceedings over several decades.)

--The Sigil

 

[BryonD]

You know you realy shouldn't temp people like that. The last time I remember seeing coments like that was the Dungeon/Poly incident. Dungeon readers complained bitterly and loudly and were told if we don't like it don't buy it. Guess what we didn't buy it and a year latter it is anounced that due to falling subscriber numbers thay are going back to what the customers said they wanted.

mmm-hmmm.

But there is a very bright side. The paying customers eventually get what they want to pay for.

Sure for White Wolf and Necromancer any sales are more than the no sales you had before, but for people like Malhavoc who did fine before there will almost certainly be a sales hit from this.

Valid point. And I have no negative thought at all toward groups who are starting out trying things this way. Clark Peterson, for example, is a really honest guy from my experience and I truly believe that growing the hobby base a true top priority for him. However, companies that move away from non-DRM stuff and then have either the gall or blindness to be critical of people who complain about have their option to buy non-crippled property taken away are rather disappointing.

But also, I think you comment does fall slightly prey to the DRM works illusion.
If DRM Tome of Horrors pdf is out there, it will not be long at all before non-DRM Tome of Horros pdf is out there. So including DRM or not is largely academic. If piracy will cut into print sales, then they should avoid PDFs altogether. If it won't, then there is little value in DRM.

All I can say is see DIVIX.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

That's just a standard, boiler-plate email verification message. No need to be paranoid. At least assuming you *did* actually sign up for an account and gave your email address.

I did, and expected a letter - but the phrasing worries me. There is always something of that nature - "email us to remove if in error" - but the very fact of DTRPG's non-clarity on this fact, combined with the lack of simple buyer-security issues (such as a privacy policy, and why do they require a phone number, for gawd's sake?) overall conveys a sense of shadyness.

Why do they require an address and telephone number if they are not shipping me anything or even verifying account information? (Easily proved, as I created a bogus account.)

I did email customer service to ask them that very question, BTW.

Now, were I less paranoid (and didn't already have a good deal of customer-loyalty to RPGnow ) I would probably assign all this to lack of experience. However, were *I* to start an internet store, selling whatever, I would do some research to at least make an effort to *look* professional before I launched it.

Just my 2 cents.

Remember, just because I'm paranoid does not mean someone isn't actually out to get me.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

As posted elsewhere, let me add:

*DRM takes away the Right of First Sale from and provides no counter-benefit to the legitimate purchaser.

A little OT, but DRM is not the first time it's been done. *shrug* Microsoft did it for Windows 98 (and probably all their other programs, but *I* read it in their EULA for Win98).

MS's End User Licence Agreement or EULA for Windows 98 (you know, that part to click "I Agree" on to install and never read?) stated that you owned a licence to use Win98, which could be revoked at any time by Microsoft. After paying over $200 for the program, that didn't make me happy.

 

[Vascant]

I have to say, this has been one of the most entertaining topics I have seen in months. Point blank, if you do not care for it do not spend your money there. If you read anything from DriveThruRPG you will learn one valuable thing, you are not the customer, therefore customer service does not exist. The customer they are concerned with are the publishers, thats it. Writing countless posts do not good except perhaps make you feel better and add some humor for others.
Your best weapon and voice, is your money. Sure they will get some sales from other countries or people who cannot get the product by normal channels. Look at the website, this is not a professional venture by any means. The individuals running it have obviously never even thought about first impressions. I have been using DRM for work for over 2 years now and I will be the first to say, it is the second most painful experience I can recall.. the first being Windows 2.0. We know what we are doing and have problems and issues with it so I can only imagine what the general public will experience. I wonder what DriveThruRPG will do if you purchase a product and find you cannot read it? They have basically went to bed with Microsoft an trust me, they won't save you.
As for the myth of DRM being secure, yes it is for those under 12 and do not have a web browser. The schema was reversed engineered a few months ago. Given that knowledge and what I said above about who the real customers are what I feel is happened is this. DriveThruRPG has convinced a few people scared to sell PDF's this is the silver bullet of piracy. I hope these publishers got that in writing. We all know Monte is no big fan of book traders but I think there was more to the switch in services then merely that and if it isn't, it goes to show what kind of person he is.

*Grins*
Anyone been around long enough when Gary Gygax basically told everyone how to game. This kind of reminds me of all that. Anyways, DRiveThruRPG my statement to you is this, I have been around probably alot longer then you and will be around long after you are gone. Enjoy your stay but please, don't leave a mess

 

[PatrickLawinger]

Actually, if you looked at the rest of my post you would have noticed that I gave some of the reasons that publishers went to a copy protection system for releasing products as pdfs. I personally don't think DRM is a good answer to the problem, at the same time I understand why publishers want to use something. Personally, I don't think those reasons are entirely valid, but print publishers, in general, have a great deal of concern about releasing electronic products. They are afraid of lost print sales, angering distributors and retailers, and piracy. They also seem to want “the other guy” to take the risk first.

I don't recall calling complaints against DRM "whining" or "noise." Some people have real complaints and problems using DRM. I did say that these people probably aren't going to be customers and are quite probably a fraction of the possible audience. While a few of the publishers at DTRPG did have pdf products, most did not. People are complaining about added availabilty of products that don't match their expectations.

I have never said I was an "innocent victim." I am not part of WW, nor do have anything to do with DTRPG. I am affiliated with a company that publishes through SSS/WW and now has releases through DTRPG.

My post also mentioned that this company is a week old (less I believe), the constant complaints might indeed change the way the company does things, copy/paste restrictions on at least some products have already been eased. I am sure that anyone emailing Steve with a new copy protection system (of any type) that is easy to implement and doesn't inconvenience customers will be listened to.

If people want real change, politely worded posts work best, polite emails are even better. Between this thread, other threads here, and on some other boards, I have seen a lot of blatant attacks. It looks like several posts I saw earlier have been edited and that the anger seems to be more tempered.

At the same time, I didn’t realize I was on a horse, perhaps if I was I would have a different perspective.

Everyone defending DTRPG seems intent to paint the flood of complaints here are baseless vitriol, whining and noise, and also painting themselves as innocent victims. Get off that horse while it's still standing, please.

Practically nobody is is saying DTRPG is evil as such. What they (and I) *are* saying is that the current form of DRM used is stupid, counterproductive and ethically questionable. Why? Everyone has their own reasons, but the most common complaints are:

* The DRM exists purely to add an illusion of security to the sellers, it has absolutely no good sides (and plenty) bad to the actual byers. In addition, there is no indication that it hinders real piracy in any form and plenty that it does not (I personally suspect it actually increases piracy).

* The DRM plain does not work for a lot of people (due to OS or whatever)

* There is no guarantee that the DRM'ed file will still be usable in, say 5 years time (companies fold, computers get upgraded, etc etc).

* Many common use cases (print shop use, non-conneced gaming computers, etc) become hard, expensive or impossible.

* You are locked to viewing the document with one specific program, not the N+1 possible viewers that normal PDFs can be used with.

* Many believe that once you've bought something, the company has no right to track your usage of it or retroactively change the terms of use. With the DTRPG model, you're no actually bying the product, you're kinda-sorta leasing it - while paying full price. People want to own stuff, not lease it.

These are all valid reasons. While you may not agree with them, they are very real to a large group of people and stop them from doing business from DTRPG. Labeling these (potential) customer complaints are noise and whining is deeply stupid, since this group of people is also the group that is most likely to buy the product, were the terms different.

Note that even though the prices are very very high in many cases, the complaints against that form a smaller group. A high price is a *secondary* factor to a lot of people. I'm not in marketing (soul still intact, thankyouverymuch), but I'd imagine the fact that something besides price is a huge buy-or-not factor to be important.

In short, people aren't saying DTRPG is evil. People are saying the business model is stupid, short-sighted, probably based on little-to-none market research, and will probably/hopefully fail. But not evil as such.

...though I must wonder what the business model actually is, since some of the parties involved have stated that their prices are artifically high so they won't compete with the print product (apparently under the illusion that the print product and the PDF somehow the same thing, I guess).

Me? Give me a site to has the catalog that DTRPG has, sells PDFs (or some equivalent standard document type) that I can view with standard tools on my Linux box with no hassle, and put the price point at max 50% of the printed book cost, and that site will gain a regular customer. As is, I'll continue shopping at rpgnow and other sites that give me value for $$$, and drive right on past DTRPG.

 

[PatrickLawinger]

You know you realy shouldn't temp people like that. The last time I remember seeing coments like that was the Dungeon/Poly incident. Dungeon readers complained bitterly and loudly and were told if we don't like it don't buy it. Guess what we didn't buy it and a year latter it is anounced that due to falling subscriber numbers thay are going back to what the customers said they wanted.

You are probably right. At the same time, people then got what they wanted didn't they?

Sure for White Wolf and Necromancer any sales are more than the no sales you had before, but for people like Malhavoc who did fine before there will almost certainly be a sales hit from this.

Right now I guessing that some people wished they had waited several weeks to see how things would go before even bothering to release anything. I really don't know

All I can say is see DIVIX.

If DRM goes away tomorrow I won't be crying about it. I don't think it will. I don't think it is a good system, but I don't happen to have a better one in my back pocket nor do I think I can convince publishers that they don't need to use copy protection. There is a lot of entrenchment there, and a lot of fear.

I personally think that print publishers are further behind the "electronic" game than even the recording industry.

 

[Tsyr]

I don't recall calling complaints against DRM "whining" or "noise." Some people have real complaints and problems using DRM. I did say that these people probably aren't going to be customers and are quite probably a fraction of the possible audience. While a few of the publishers at DTRPG did have pdf products, most did not. People are complaining about added availabilty of products that don't match their expectations.

This is largely the problem (That gets people riled up, as opposed to DRM which just makes us not buy the stuff) though looked at from the wrong angle.

Us "probably a fraction of the possible audience" are the people who have supported and embraced PDFs all along, have pushed for more companies to support it, and have felt that it was a good direction for companies to take.

Now we are being pushed to the wayside, told (not just by you) that we are not a signifigant audience, that if we don't buy them, no biggie, they don't think we are the right audience anyhow.

That hurts.

 

[PatrickLawinger]

(I snipped some of your post)

Let's remember that some publishers are so afraid of piracy that they don't want to release any electronic products at all. I was rather surprised at the list of companies at DTRPG. If they do start to feel that pdfs are cutting into print sales, you won't see pdfs.

For print publishers, print sales are everything. Electronic releases are, at best, a tiny added market. Could this be different? Yes, absolutely. Eventually, I think there is going to be a huge electronic market, I just don't see that happening soon. When it does happen, I am afraid that print publishers are going to be as far behind the game as the record industry is as far as electronic distribution.

But also, I think you comment does fall slightly prey to the DRM works illusion.
If DRM Tome of Horrors pdf is out there, it will not be long at all before non-DRM Tome of Horros pdf is out there. So including DRM or not is largely academic. If piracy will cut into print sales, then they should avoid PDFs altogether. If it won't, then there is little value in DRM.