Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow (merged)

[PatrickLawinger]

Okay, but right now it appears most of the publishers using DRM/DTRPG aren't doing it to "jump on the pdf bandwagon." They are doing it as an added distribution route to areas they can't reach. A lot of these publishers are terrified of electronic publishing and just barely getting their feet wet.

I am not saying that *I* feel that this is the right route, but I have seen and heard where these people are coming from. Numerous posts have already demonstrated that DRM is a flawed protection system, I am not trying to argue that. I am saying that without it, many of these publishers would not even step into the pond. Now that they are stepping in, maybe they'll decide the water isn't that deep and cold after all, and that maybe they can relax their paranoia.

This is largely the problem (That gets people riled up, as opposed to DRM which just makes us not buy the stuff) though looked at from the wrong angle.

Us "probably a fraction of the possible audience" are the people who have supported and embraced PDFs all along, have pushed for more companies to support it, and have felt that it was a good direction for companies to take.

Now we are being pushed to the wayside, told (not just by you) that we are not a signifigant audience, that if we don't buy them, no biggie, they don't think we are the right audience anyhow.

That hurts.

 

[francisca]

(I snipped some of your post)

Let's remember that some publishers are so afraid of piracy that they don't want to release any electronic products at all. I was rather surprised at the list of companies at DTRPG. If they do start to feel that pdfs are cutting into print sales, you won't see pdfs.

For print publishers, print sales are everything. Electronic releases are, at best, a tiny added market. Could this be different? Yes, absolutely. Eventually, I think there is going to be a huge electronic market, I just don't see that happening soon. When it does happen, I am afraid that print publishers are going to be as far behind the game as the record industry is as far as electronic distribution.

I've speculated (maybe in this thread, maybe another, I dunno) that the companies who were print-only are going to be the only ones who make any money on this. I actually think that some illicit copies getting out will lead to more sale of physical copies, and then they get whatever they make from sale on DriveThruRPG.

I wonder how many sales DriveThruRPG has racked up so far. I bet it's quite a bit.

 

[BryonD]

(I snipped some of your post)

Let's remember that some publishers are so afraid of piracy that they don't want to release any electronic products at all. I was rather surprised at the list of companies at DTRPG. If they do start to feel that pdfs are cutting into print sales, you won't see pdfs.

For print publishers, print sales are everything. Electronic releases are, at best, a tiny added market. Could this be different? Yes, absolutely. Eventually, I think there is going to be a huge electronic market, I just don't see that happening soon. When it does happen, I am afraid that print publishers are going to be as far behind the game as the record industry is as far as electronic distribution.

OK. I'm glad to hear that you agree.
But the point that DRM security is an illusion remains. False security is worse than no security.

So why is it again they bothered?

 

[PatrickLawinger]

Not clear on how you get from DRM to foreign countries. Non-DRM products can reach foreign countries. And DRM isn't particularly meaningful, in places where US copyright does not apply.

Basically, I know that Necromancer Games felt they didn't have the time or manpower to do pdf/electronic releases. DTRPG offered services that allowed this with no effort on the part of NG. NG said yes due to complaints from fans about a few out of print items and fans from overseas that hoped for a less expensive way to obtain products. I am sorry about the confusion, but NG's participation had, as I understand it, absolutely nothing to with whether or not DTRPG was going to use DRM or any method of copy protection.

First, the internet literate types greatly disproportionately represent the pdf consumer base.

You are giving up 5 birds in the hand for one in the bush.

Second, I think you greatly underestimate who will be inconvenieced. People not familair with DRM will buy at first. And as soon as they have trouble moving it, or backing it up, or whatever, they will stop buying.

I've heard statements like this before.

EDIT: Removed a comment because someone else's reply was much better than mine.

I agree that anyone "internet literate" is going to be a disproportionate part of the customer base. I do think DRM can be inconvenient for anyone with more than one machine to deal with, or anyone that tries print at work, etc. I have 4+machines myself, and use several different OS's. I am only trying to present the idea that we are talking about print publishers getting into electronic releases. The paranoia there is really pretty high.

I have already said I am not a proponent of DRM, at the same time, I have said that I don't think it is going away soon. I believe that it was a selling point to get some of the publishers on DTRPG's list to take the chance on pdfs (I have absolutely no inside information that this is true-this is supposition based on what certain people involved in certain companies listed there have said about electronic products in the past).

DRM is a pain to many of us, but to the "average" user with one computer and one printer at home, it really isn't. As the number of household computers increases, some sort of adjustment has to be made, I don't know what that would be.

edit: the site is really slow for me right now, I am trying to answer posts the best I can.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

Friendly Note

Mr. Lawinger, I think a large part of the "betrayal" feeling that a lot of people are having is not stemming from the print-only companies trying PDF sales for the first time, but companies such as Malhavoic and Fiery Dragon switching to DRM. That is the impression that I am getting, at any rate, and people, correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, hopefully these new-to-pdf publishers will relax eventually. But the people who supported companies already into pdf publishing (like the two mentioned above) are being "pushed to the wayside" (to quote Tsyr) by those very same publishers they have been purchasing pdfs from all this time.

What does that say about those company's customer-relations?

At the moment, I can't say. I can say that it doesn't look good, though.

Especially since it has been proven that DRM is easily cracked, thus negated what is assumedly the main reason for the pulling of "normal" pdfs from the market.

I have to admit, someone over a Adobe has one h*ll of a salesperson to push this DRM thing so hard and to get so many to sign on.

Leaving out the new-to-pdf publishers entirely, there is a great deal of failed trust in this thread because of those publishers who previously engaged in the pdf market.

Just my observations on the matter (and yes, I have read this whole thread and many of the others currently floating around the boards on this topic). I am also trying hard to create that suspension of belief that the reasons these companies made this move was for "Customer Service" reasons like has been suggested by others in this thread.

Okay, but right now it appears most of the publishers using DRM/DTRPG aren't doing it to "jump on the pdf bandwagon." They are doing it as an added distribution route to areas they can't reach. A lot of these publishers are terrified of electronic publishing and just barely getting their feet wet.

I am not saying that *I* feel that this is the right route, but I have seen and heard where these people are coming from. Numerous posts have already demonstrated that DRM is a flawed protection system, I am not trying to argue that. I am saying that without it, many of these publishers would not even step into the pond. Now that they are stepping in, maybe they'll decide the water isn't that deep and cold after all, and that maybe they can relax their paranoia.

 

[The Sigil]

I've speculated (maybe in this thread, maybe another, I dunno) that the companies who were print-only are going to be the only ones who make any money on this. I actually think that some illicit copies getting out will lead to more sale of physical copies, and then they get whatever they make from sale on DriveThruRPG.

I wonder how many sales DriveThruRPG has racked up so far. I bet it's quite a bit.

I bet it's not.

I'm sure they've distributed a lot of "free" product. I doubt they've seen tons of sales. Why?

The following justification is PURELY speculative:

Their current #8 bestseller is the "Book of Hallowed Might II."

That's Monte's #1 bestseller. His #4 bestseller is "Chaositech." Among Monte's "special books," Chaositech is the ONLY seller (the "bestseller" list for that category is exactly one entry long). That's up from #6 last night, but I'm going to guess that jump represents just one or two sales.

My guess - at it's complete speculation - is that Chaositech has no more than five or six sales and the BoHM2 has no more than ten... which suggests that their site-wide bestseller may have 15-20 tops.

END speculation

I may be totally off, though. As someone who despises DRM, I hope I'm not. Not because I want DTRPG to fail, but because I hope they get the STRONG message that DRM is NOT acceptable and that as a result they will eliminate DRM. I do not want DTRPG to succeed with DRM because I feel it sends the wrong message.

--The Sigil

 

[francisca]

I bet it's not.

I'm sure they've distributed a lot of "free" product. I doubt they've seen tons of sales. Why?

The following justification is PURELY speculative:

Their current #8 bestseller is the "Book of Hallowed Might II."

That's Monte's #1 bestseller. His #4 bestseller is "Chaositech." Among Monte's "special books," Chaositech is the ONLY seller (the "bestseller" list for that category is exactly one entry long). That's up from #6 last night, but I'm going to guess that jump represents just one or two sales.

My guess - at it's complete speculation - is that Chaositech has no more than five or six sales and the BoHM2 has no more than ten... which suggests that their site-wide bestseller may have 15-20 tops.

END speculation

I may be totally off, though. As someone who despises DRM, I hope I'm not. Not because I want DTRPG to fail, but because I hope they get the STRONG message that DRM is NOT acceptable and that as a result they will eliminate DRM. I do not want DTRPG to succeed with DRM because I feel it sends the wrong message.

--The Sigil

I despise DRM too. But I think most people don't care, though I am (pleasantly) surprised that the poll asking if people will be buying from DriveThru is 85% no.

Time will tell. Or maybe it won't.


Crap. Answering you reminds me, I still need to review OGL Fantasy Light.

 

[BryonD]

Basically, I know that Necromancer Games felt they didn't have the time or manpower to do pdf/electronic releases. DTRPG offered services that allowed this with no effort on the part of NG. NG said yes due to complaints from fans about a few out of print items and fans from overseas that hoped for a less expensive way to obtain products. I am sorry about the confusion, but NG's participation had, as I understand it, absolutely nothing to with whether or not DTRPG was going to use DRM or any method of copy protection.

Ah. That is a good answer. Thanks.
And it is certainly consistent with my prior attitude toward Necromancer.

It is to bad that the DMR baggage came along.

I agree that anyone "internet literate" is going to be a disproportionate part of the customer base. I do think DRM can be inconvenient for anyone with more than one machine to deal with, or anyone that tries print at work, etc. I have 4+machines myself, and use several different OS's. I am only trying to present the idea that we are talking about print publishers getting into electronic releases. The paranoia there is really pretty high.

I have already said I am not a proponent of DRM, at the same time, I have said that I don't think it is going away soon. I believe that it was a selling point to get some of the publishers on DTRPG's list to take the chance on pdfs (I have absolutely no inside information that this is true-this is supposition based on what certain people involved in certain companies listed there have said about electronic products in the past).

DRM is a pain to many of us, but to the "average" user with one computer and one printer at home, it really isn't. As the number of household computers increases, some sort of adjustment has to be made, I don't know what that would be.

edit: the site is really slow for me right now, I am trying to answer posts the best I can.

What makes your definition of the "average" user accurate? As you stated above, internet literate people will be strongly represented. Your definition of average contradicts that in my experience. Plus, you are neglecting that many people who will not be directly bothered by the hoop-jumping will still avoid the product because of registration requirements and big brotherism.

If you didn't really know that your customer base if fairly paranoid, then you need to find a new line of work. Us paranoids have got the cash in our pockets, do you want it or not?

Lastly, let me see if I have this correct:
DRM security is an illusion.
DTRPG is marketing that illusional security to its clients.
This will lead to DRM being here to stay?

Sorry, business and entire markets go bust all the time. Virtually all of the had strongly committed and confident investors at the start. If the business model is non-viable, it will crash and burn eventually.

 

[Henry]

Crap. Answering you reminds me, I still need to review OGL Fantasy Light.

Don't feel left out.

Spence, I'lll post mine tonight, too. I've been swamped at home, but just came back up for air.

 

[PatrickLawinger]

(some snipped, I don't view this particular thread as vitriolic, or wouldn't be responding to it, I don't view myself as any sort of victim)

That's fine. You are 100% correct. The previously print only publishers are not taking away anything.

Just be aware that your current pricing will not appeal to what many typical PDF buyers shop for. Many of us seek commonly used apps in electronic format in addition to printed format because it allows additional utility in terms of copy and pasting to game notes, printing out individual pages, and less weight if you need to go to a game elsewhere and don't want to take a hand truck with you to cart your crates of books. Priced at 50% or less of print MSRP, that's what many established PDF buyers do.

If you are only marketing to those who can't get the print books and really want them, your pricing will meet that need but little more. If you do that consciously, I don't see that anyone can begrudge you that.

People are still dealing with pricing of pdfs right now. Clark Peterson has already posted that yes, Necro can set prices, but that Necro trusts SSS/WW to do that for us. They make money on each sale, it is in their best interest to obtain as many sales for us as possible and we trust them to help us with pricing. Having a company that takes care of printing, warehousing, pricing, and distribution allows us to focus on making books. Last I checked, the only books we had up at DTRPG were two of our most recent releases. I don't think you'll see heavy discounts on pdfs of recent/current print releases but I am really not certain how that will work out in the end.

Ah, but that's two different things. Some form of copy protection, perhaps. But DRM is not, IMO, currently a customer friendly solution. It's riddled with problems. I predict (<--- mark words) that if it is not improved significantly, it will be replaced by a protection that won't piss off customers.

Even then, I am not so certain. Someone else linked to an article by a software company that deliberately does not include intrusive software protection. I think that if publishers are really concerned about making things work in an electronic world, they should pay heed to those who have already been down that route.

Is DRM a good answer? I don't really think so, but I think it is the answer that was used to entice some pretty reluctant people into releasing some electronic books. Personally, if DRM helped some people start taking chances and thinking about how to deal with future electronic releases then I think it has had its benefit. The waters aren't that scary to some of us, but to many print publishers electronic releases are just terrifying.

I think I mentioned it somewhere before, I think print publishers (this is just a generalization) are as far behind in the electronic industry as the recording industry has been. I honestly think they'll end up playing "catch up" a few years from now. Right now, the cost of printing a product on your home printer and the screen resolution of most "readers" and screens is holding up electronic publishing. I believe that screen resolutions and prices are changing quickly (printer costs, um, probably won't) and that e-publishing is getting ready for a huge expansion in the future. I also believe that this expansion is going to be driven by the present high school and college-age students as they go out into the work force and become a (more) serious economic force. These are people that are used to reading screens, used to reading laptops, and not as acclimated to "holding a solid paper book" in their hands like some of the rest of us. I am also biased, I have a long-standing investment in one of the companies that makes the materials used to make these screens .

Part of the problem, as I see it, is that print publishers (again, generalizing here) want someone else to take care of the copyright/piracy issues before they jump in. Of course, like everyone else, they expect this to then be given away cheaply. This essentially means that nobody is making a concerted effort to come up with a copy protection system that is actually secure AND that doesn't inconvenience the customer or a subset of customers. The focus has generally been on security for documents within a business, not security for documents designed to be sold and distributed. It is a problem that needs a solution.