[UPDATED] Here's Mike Mearls' New D&D 5E Initiative System

In his AMA yesterday, WotC's Mike Mearls frequently referenced his dislike for D&D's initiative system, and mentioned that he was using a new initiative system in his own games. He later briefly explained what that was: "Roll each round. D4 = ranged, d8 = melee, d12 = spell, d6 = anything else, +d8 to swap gear, +d8 for bonus action, low goes 1st. Oh, and +d6 to move and do something ... adds tension, speeds up resolution. So far in play has been faster and makes fights more intense." That's the short version; there's likely more to it. Mearls mentioned briefly that he might trial it in Unearthed Arcana at some point to see what sort of reaction it gets.

In his AMA, Mearls indicated it was cyclic initiative he didn't like ("Cyclical initiative - too predictable"), which the above doesn't address at all (it merely changes the die rolls). Presumably there's more to the system than that quick couple of sentences up there, and it sounds like initiative is rolled every round. So if your initiative is based on your action, presumably you declare your action before rolling initiative (as opposed to declaring your action when your initiative comes around).

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UPDATE: I asked Mearls a couple of quick questions. He commented that it "lets ranged guys shoot before melee closes, spellcasters need to be shielded". He also mentioned that he "tinkered with using your weapon's damage die as your roll, but too inflexible, not sure it's worth it".

How is this implemented in-game? "Roll each round, count starts again at 1. Requires end of turn stuff to swap to end of round, since it's not static. In play I've called out numbers - Any 1s, 2s, etc, then just letting every PC go once monsters are done". You announce your action at the beginning of the round; you only need to "commit to the action type - you're not picking specific targets or a specific spell, for instance."

Dexterity does NOT adjust INITIATIVE. Mearls comments that "Dex is already so good, i don't miss it".

So what's the main benefit of the system? "Big benefit is that it encourages group to make a plan, then implement it. Group sees issue of the round and acts around it. I also think it adds a nice flow to combat - each round is a sequence. Plan, resolve, act, encourages group cohesion. Resolution is also faster - each player knows what to do; you don't need to pick spells ahead of acting, but groups so far have planned them."

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[Ratskinner]

The sword swinger also has to roll for initiative. Mearls simply decided that casting a spell in a fight takes more precision than a weapon swing. A shoddy swing can still cause minor injuries. A mis-pronounced spell does nothing.

I come at this from a 1e perspective, where magic was rare and powerful and your first level wizard was aged 30 compared to your 15 year old Fighter. I think younger players may come at it from a computer gaming perspective where sword and spell both take effect at the push of a button. I can understand how those backgrounds might skew perspectives but I personally have no problem with spells being slower on average. It gives martial characters a slight edge to offset their more limited versatility.

Sure. Its adjustable to preference, but D&D has been leaning closer and closer to expelliarmus! for a while now.

On a side note: I've been playing since 1e as well and I can't say that any of my experiences would support the supposition that magic was somehow "rare and powerful" back in the good old days (especially the rare part). Many of the old adventures are dripping with magic, treasure or otherwise. I mean c'mon, this is the era when using a sphere of annihilation in an obnoxious "gotcha" trap or garbage disposal was regarded as legit. I don't think I've ever met a mid-level Old-school dwarf without the Franklin Mint's Dwarven Heritage Artifact Set. Plenty of those items have "at-will" abilities that can easily rival 5e controls.

It is, however, less-codified and generally opaque to the players. Whether that's good or not is in the eye of the beholder. But it does have the (unintended?) side effect of making magic item "drops" one of the key ways a DM can influence the party, plot, or whatever while simultaneously making him seem like a nice guy. Add a dash of fairness and suddenly every old school party I've ever been a part of glows from orbit when somebody casts Detect Magic.

Although I will grant that YMMV, and it does in each campaign. I don't see anything about the old school approach to casters that makes magic "rare and powerful".

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[Pauln6]

Sure. Its adjustable to preference, but D&D has been leaning closer and closer to expelliarmus! for a while now.

On a side note: I've been playing since 1e as well and I can't say that any of my experiences would support the supposition that magic was somehow "rare and powerful" back in the good old days (especially the rare part). Many of the old adventures are dripping with magic, treasure or otherwise. I mean c'mon, this is the era when using a sphere of annihilation in an obnoxious "gotcha" trap or garbage disposal was regarded as legit. I don't think I've ever met a mid-level Old-school dwarf without the Franklin Mint's Dwarven Heritage Artifact Set. Plenty of those items have "at-will" abilities that can easily rival 5e controls.

It is, however, less-codified and generally opaque to the players. Whether that's good or not is in the eye of the beholder. But it does have the (unintended?) side effect of making magic item "drops" one of the key ways a DM can influence the party, plot, or whatever while simultaneously making him seem like a nice guy. Add a dash of fairness and suddenly every old school party I've ever been a part of glows from orbit when somebody casts Detect Magic.

Although I will grant that YMMV, and it does in each campaign. I don't see anything about the old school approach to casters that makes magic "rare and powerful".

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All very true. They have tried to balance martial and magic more finely in this edition for sure. The addition of a magical focus to replace materials does point to the shift in concept.

The clearest example I can think of is Feather Fall. Raistlin used it a lot and it is cast as a bonus action by uttering a simple word. Under this system it would be a bonus action, or 1d6. That seems to be your high water mark. Every other spell that takes an action must require a bigger die than that.

Magic requiring 'the will and the word' still requires the sufficient concentration to maintain the will. You could even argue that Hogwart's trains its pupils in the combat casting feat, given what we see on screen, which would reduce the initiative roll somehow.

Plus, many other spells in Harry Potter take quite a while to take effect. As I said before, uttering the words may be quick but that petronus takes its sweet time to do anything useful while it plays around with special effects. The assumptions this system uses do have a basis in existing fantasy logic as well as game logic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I really like the unpredictability this option introduces. However, having each player roll multiple dice for initiative each round will definitely slow down combat. A detailed initiative subsystem might be up Mearls alley but it's not what my game needs

While on the topic of alternative initiative rules, Shadow of the Demon Lord (by Robert Schwalb) should be mentioned. Fast/Slow turns and heroes always go first works surprisingly well. It's a nice piece of game design, check it out if you're so inclined.

That works. I've also recently been looking at the idea of just writing down everyone's main combat stat, and using that as their initiative. If they have any advantage to it, that is a +5, being hidden is +5, and being the one whose action initiates combat puts you at the top, automatically. Any ties, players go before enemies, and player ties are resolved with a no-bonus d20 roll.

If we go back to the normal system, I will probably keep the idea of using your primary stat instead of everyone rolling Dex, and the whole "hidden=advantage" idea.

 

[Lanefan]

The clearest example I can think of is Feather Fall. Raistlin used it a lot and it is cast as a bonus action by uttering a simple word. Under this system it would be a bonus action, or 1d6. That seems to be your high water mark. Every other spell that takes an action must require a bigger die than that.

In 5e wouldn't (in theory anyway) the fastest spell be Counterspell, as in order to counter any other spell it has to resolve before the spell being countered, whatever it may be?

Magic requiring 'the will and the word' still requires the sufficient concentration to maintain the will. You could even argue that Hogwart's trains its pupils in the combat casting feat, given what we see on screen, which would reduce the initiative roll somehow.

Plus, many other spells in Harry Potter take quite a while to take effect. As I said before, uttering the words may be quick but that petronus takes its sweet time to do anything useful while it plays around with special effects. The assumptions this system uses do have a basis in existing fantasy logic as well as game logic.

Expecto Patronus is almost more like a ritual in D&D terms. Most of the spells they use in the Potterverse seem to be very fast: one or two words at most and a quick swish and flick. A few (e.g. Wingardium Leviosa) seem to need concentration to keep them going, but even those are in the minority.

Then again, while there's lots of spell-vs.-spell combat in HP there isn't very much of what we'd call melee or even conventional ranged combat, so maybe it's not the best example in the first place to help any of us state our case here...?

Lan-"mischief managed"-efan

 

[Pauln6]

In 5e wouldn't (in theory anyway) the fastest spell be Counterspell, as in order to counter any other spell it has to resolve before the spell being countered, whatever it may be?

Expecto Patronus is almost more like a ritual in D&D terms. Most of the spells they use in the Potterverse seem to be very fast: one or two words at most and a quick swish and flick. A few (e.g. Wingardium Leviosa) seem to need concentration to keep them going, but even those are in the minority.

Then again, while there's lots of spell-vs.-spell combat in HP there isn't very much of what we'd call melee or even conventional ranged combat, so maybe it's not the best example in the first place to help any of us state our case here...?

Lan-"mischief managed"-efan

Counterspell is an outlier rather than a high water mark as it uses a reaction but so does feather fall so my specific example was poorly made all round! They do use the patronus in combat against the dementors after powering through a few rounds of failed saving throws, so not exactly portrayed as rituals but a good example of the initiative roll being partly representative of one combat round bleeding into the next perhaps.

I think it's true to say that magic, unlike weapons, does not have a consistent portrayal in written or visual media, and in that respect, DMs have plenty of scope to adjust these dice to their own preference. Pacing on screen and the plot device that magic occupies has an impact. Nevertheless, there has to be a baseline and there is enough logic in placing that baseline where Mearls has placed it, particularly if you allow things like combat casting and inspiration etc to help.

How would initiative bonuses and improved initiative impact?

 

[DerekSTheRed]

Cyclic initiative is a great default. I certainly wouldn't suggest this system be used with newbies just learning the game. As an optional advanced rule set, I could see this as interesting variant rule.

The DMG already has optional initiative systems including a speed factor. The only real difference between Mearl's system and the one in DMG on page 271 is that bonuses are replaced with dice and you count up and not down. Well that and extra rolls for bonus action and/or movement.

It's an interesting throw back that I could see some of my grognard players liking in a niche sort of way.


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[Caliburn101]

I can say a two-syllable word and point my finger in a fraction of a second. It's a clever technique in which I speak and point at the same time, instead of one after the other. I can even do it while holding a stick (focus) in the other hand. I'm just really talented, I guess.

Now, if you can find someplace in the rules where it says the verbal component of a 1-action spell is more than a two-syllable word, or that the gesture is more complex than pointing, I'll concede the argument.

You keep making the same mistake, so I'll point it out again in the hopes you see it.

I made it quite clear spellcasting should be slower in a REVISED initiative system as Mearls' is suggesting such a system might be a future option. I DID NOT suggest the current rules need it - yet every example you give for this 'not being right' demands I show you where in the CURRENT RULES my argument is right.

I hope that makes it abundantly clear you are comparing apples and oranges.

By the way - remember some spells have to be thrown as an attack - are you suggesting a 'finger point' is the entire somatic component of every spell?

... and I see you still won't tackle the component issue, which the current rules say is as fast as a foci.

Tell you what - I'll bring my LARP sword round your house - you can have just ONE component in a pouch which is already open, and I'll let you 'draw' first and you won't have to say any words or even point...

... grab the component within 10 feet of me and I'll hit you first EVERY... SINGLE... TIME before that component sees daylight - guaranteed. Do it within 5ft and I'll hit you twice.

Anyway - enough said - the RAW doesn't stop you having insta-spells, so enjoy them.

 

[jmucchiello]

I'd rule the orc is stunned immediately. Otherwise, it seems weird.

Since all actions are declared up front, I'm assuming all action is basically simultaneous. The orc will be stunned at the end of the round but his action takes place before (or during) the action that stuns him. It isn't weird unless you assume the action happens in the order it is resolved rather than in no particular order. The resolution order only exists because coordination of the action resolution requires serial access to the DM.

 

[jmucchiello]

What if the creature is reduced to 0 HP? Does it still get its action this round, dying in the next round?

Yes, he isn't dead until the round ends. All action is simultaneous. Resolution is serial only because people cannot all talk at once and be heard at once.

 

[ad_hoc]

Yes, he isn't dead until the round ends. All action is simultaneous. Resolution is serial only because people cannot all talk at once and be heard at once.

That is a huge house rule and deserves its own thread.

I would never play that way and I don't know of any groups I've been in that would either.