Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Buddha the DM]

Whoa! I'd say the requirements are WAY too strict. None of the deities in D&Dg fulfill any of the requirements they would've needed to become deities under your system, and the requirements also force players to waste feats on things they probably wouldn't otherwise get.

I'd say, at the very least, ditch all the requirements. The rules we need are the ones governing divine ascension itself, such as how much of this do you gain, etc.

My house rules are for players that want to go for Divine Ascension, and not the gods that have already been published in the books. Besides how are these requirements too strict? Most everyone that I have talked to online has thought that they were reasonable.

For those of you that can't go to, or won't go to, my page the requirements that I have listed for divine ascension are:

Class Level of 15+ in two or more classes, or a Class Level of 30+ in one class (at least one class should have spellcasting or psionic abilities); Epic Leadership; Extended Life Span; Knowledge (Religon: Sponsor’s Pantheon) 15+ ranks, and 10+ ranks in a skill related to a portfolio aspect that you want; Sponsorship by a Deity of Divine Rank 10+ with a portfolio aspect that you want.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Xun Huo

Hi Anubis mate!

Don't ask about the Epic Level Handbook...

That's complicated. You see, when I originally went to Epic Levels, we were using the GenCon handout still. Thus, when the ELH came out, I basically had to completely remake her in order to adjust for the REAL Epic Level Rules.

As it is, I created the character from the previous level, took the 13,600,000 gp, and then "bought" all the items as her the DMG. Items that could be created cost 70% of the normal cost, etc. We just decided on the number of Epic Spells as a function of Kowledge (arcana) divided by 10. All extras I paid for from the money.

So basically, I originally did it all through adventuring, but had to "update" her for the ELH since I used the outdated rules from the handout.

I would be circumspect about throwing around too many Epic Items. NPCs won't have many; so generally that means the player has to make them which of course costs XP as well as GP.

Also, I had to take into account your stuff as well, UK.

Okay.

You tease! Grrr . . . I can't use them until I get your book, dood!

Ouch, she'd be screwed in an AMF . . . That's where most of her power comes from!

Absolutely.

Then again, all the "wizard" gods would be screwed in an AMF . . .

The trick is not to get caught in one.

Or not. AMF only has a 10 ft. radius, so I'd stand back and Mordenkainen's Disjuction the candy ass who tried that. (Note to self, memorize Mordenkainen's Disjuction multiple times.)

Orcus, no, I'm fighting the one that can be found on the EN World site.

That Orcus is CR33. Your character is CR38 (under my revised CR rules).

My version of Orcus is CR42 incidently.

As for Tiamat and Bahamut, yes, I'll be fighting their D&Dg selves. I'd squash the ones from MOTP easily. I'm still scared ****less about fighting Prismatic Dragons, though.

Bahamut and Tiamat are tougher than a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (even though they really should have the proper ability score increases from Divinity)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Buddha mate!

Here is a link to my Divine Ascension - House Rules ..

I intend to use these until something more concrete comes out.

Please note that the sample deity is still being worked on, but is nearly completed.

Okay.

Upper_Krust: I'd appreciate any feedback that you'd care to give.

Sure.

Well, firstly, I'm not too hot on your Suggested Requirements.

For Divine Rank 0 I suggest 20th-level minimum HD/Levels.

Spellcasting/Psionic class prerequisites would seem to rule out Hercules et al.

The Epic Feats do seem a bit picky. I wouldn't see an Assassin God necessarily taking Epic Leadership. Extended Lifespan immediately becomes void once you gain Quasi-deity status, so thats a bit of a waste. The Knowledge (Religion) seems to infer that all deities must have a sponsor, something I don't think should be a hard rule.

Also, Quasi-deities don't gain maximum hit points (until Divine Rank 1)

You forgot a few of the Divine Immunities: Acid, Cold, Electricity.

I did like the Magic Items, Quasi-deities (NPCs) generally won't have more than one artifact in their possession (I see this as the Spellcraft Ring in this case). But I would generally let them fill their slots with any non-artifact/non-epic item in the DMG.

One other point is that I am not sure if the deities Deflection Bonus to AC should stack with a Ring of Protection (since both are SU).

I still can't comment too much on epic matters since that book still isn't in my possession.

 

[Buddha the DM]

My god on that page doesn't have those immunities (electricity, cold, and acid) because the book says that a god of DvR 1 or higher has them, and he is only DvR 0.

Are my house rules totally useless and no good then?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Xun Huo vs. Orcus

Hello again mate!

Ouch! This was an utter squash!

As I would have easily predicted, given the CRs of both participants.

One on one, Xun Huo vs. Orcus, and it wasn't pretty.

Well Orcus ain't no pin up!

Xun Huo crushed that little demon punk in three rounds.

Round 1: Xun Huo (always hasted) runs up, attacks using Iaijutsu Focus. Orcus hastes himself and summons a balor. Balor tries to full attack and misses.

Round 2: Xun Huo uses a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x11] to suck out ALL of the balor's power, killing it instantly, then casts Destroy on Orcus for 39 damage. Orcus tries to attack and fails, then forgets Xun Huo is a GOD and tries energy drain, which also fails.

Round 3: Xun Huo casts a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x14] for over 800 damage, then casts a Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] to finish him off, obliterating him.

Xun Huo got 4000 XP.

This has proven two things: 1) Epic Level Gods are freaking awesome, 2) Metamagic Feats should not be allowed to stack on top of themselves.

Whatcha think, guys? UK?

I don't see you catching Orcus on his own too often.

Also whats to say Orcus wasn't hasted as well!?

Seemingly, summoning Undead (x3 33rd-level Wizard (1), Cleric (1), Psionicist (1) Demiliches*) would be a better move.

*and a 1HD skeleton who just dances about since it can't really affect proceedings.

If you let Orcus get to melee range he should have upped an AMF then introduced you to his tail poison.

Of course you would have been in serious trouble had you attempted such an affront to my version of Orcus!

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Xun Huo vs. Orcus

This has proven two things: 1) Epic Level Gods are freaking awesome, 2) Metamagic Feats should not be allowed to stack on top of themselves.

Actually, your example proved only one thing; "Never use a really bad example as the basis of your argument". Or was it "Never rub another man's rhubarb"? I can never remember which one.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Buddha mate!

My god on that page doesn't have those immunities (electricity, cold, and acid) because the book says that a god of DvR 1 or higher has them, and he is only DvR 0.

Every Quasi-deity in D&Dg has those abilities.

Are my house rules totally useless and no good then?

To quote Anubis: WHOA WHOA WHOA!

Stop right there! We don't use defeatist talk in this thread!

Think positive! There is no useless, only degrees of usefulness.

That said, its difficult for me to give an opinion on this without saying what I would do (as per the IH).

Perhaps a slightly scaled down version of your suggested requirements would be very useful in outlining how a character might become the 'Chosen of' a god. Since many of your ideas would seem a lot more relevant in that capacity:

- Epic Leadership
- Extended Life Span
- Knowledge (Religion)

I can see all the above being poignant for 'Chosen of' characters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Request

Hi Anubis mate!

UK, could you please go read my thread I started on Empower Spell?

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21241

Just did.

A lot of it is the same stuff I posted here, but I do have some more details examples over there, and some people will undoubtedly have replied over there by the time you get there.

Do you want me to post there as well?

I saw someone who questioned the wisdom of your characters CR, so I may stop by for todays edification.

I am asking you, seeing as you are so good with the rules, should stacking Empower Spell be allowed? It obviously gives Wizards, Sorcerers, and sometimes even Clerics an INSANE amount of power to where NO Fighter of ANY level could defeat them! Between Horrid Wilting and Vampiric Touch, Empower Spell is the most broken thing in the game!

The problem (as far as I know, and take into account I don't have the ELH yet) is not the Empower Spell Metamagic Feat but rather the Improved Metamagic Feat - its totally insane.

In fact I actually started a thread about 9 months ago about Improved Metamagic where I outlined how broken it was - of course back then no one paid much attention since the ELH was still almost a year away at that point.

Seriously, man, it's broken. Empower Spell should not be allowed to be stacked on top of itself . . . EVER . . . Input? Perhaps you'll add something about this to your book if there's room?

I'll certainly nuke the Improved Metamagic Feat (provided the ELH goes SRD)

While we're on the subject of things broken, what is your stance on Harm/Heal?

It should allow a Fort save.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Xun Huo

That Orcus is CR33. Your character is CR38 (under my revised CR rules).

My version of Orcus is CR42 incidently.

Huh? I used the stuff yoiu had in Asgard 6 to calculate Orcus's CR, and it was only 31. Also, using the stuff in Asgard 6, Xun Huo was CR 34.

Orcus: HD 50 = ECL 36, 16 SA and SQ = ECL 8, ECL 44 = CR 31
Xun Huo: Level 40 = ECL 40, DvR 2 = ECL 16, ECL 56 = CR 34

Of course, that doesn't take into account the new Deity ECL if you decide that's best after testing, although I think 8 would be enough . . .

I don't suppose you could post your full Orcus here for me to duel?

Bahamut and Tiamat are tougher than a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (even though they really should have the proper ability score increases from Divinity)

I dunno . . . Those two seem weak in comparison . . . The Prismatic Dragons have SR, DR, and HP so high that Bahamut and Tiamat couldn't even hit them . . .

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi mate!

Huh? I used the stuff you had in Asgard 6 to calculate Orcus's CR, and it was only 31.

Orcus: HD 50 = ECL 36, 16 SA and SQ = ECL 8, ECL 44 = CR 31

Orcus is 50HD, but he has 40 integrated character levels.

40 levels = ECL 40
10HD Outsider = ECL 7
16 SA & SQ = ECL 8

Total 55 ECL = CR 33

Also, using the stuff in Asgard 6, Xun Huo was CR 34.

Xun Huo: Level 40 = ECL 40, DvR 2 = ECL 16, ECL 56 = CR 34

This is correct. However as you ascertained I have a few new ideas regarding deity ECL/CR.

Of course, that doesn't take into account the new Deity ECL if you decide that's best after testing, although I think 8 would be enough . . .

The standard 1st-level Fighter in the DMG, given Quasi-deity power could beat the standard 15th-level version!

Consider the following changes quasi-official (no pun intended):

Quasi-deity: ECL +14
Divine Rank 1: ECL +24
Each subsquent Divine Rank: ECL +4

I don't suppose you could post your full Orcus here for me to duel?

I technically don't have a full Orcus, as such, to post.

However, I favour 45HD; Divine Rank 7; Str 48; Dex 26; Con 38; Int 35; Wis 40; Cha 34.

I dunno . . . Those two seem weak in comparison . . . The Prismatic Dragons have SR, DR, and HP so high that Bahamut and Tiamat couldn't even hit them . . .

There is a thread about this on the WotC boards that goes into more detail on the matter:

http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=222;t=000399