Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

Well, since we're presumably trying to prove or disprove my theory/argument of DvR 0 actually being ECL +10 as opposed to your ECL +14, wouldn't it be more appropriate for your Quasi-deity to be a Level 1 character with Level 11 NPC wealth?

Or do you think that the test would work either which way, with my point being proven by finding a normal challenge at even the ECL +14 as opposed to my ECL +10, and your point being proven by my not being able to win at either level?

Actually, that last paragraph makes no sense. NOW I think I understand the difference between ECL and CR . . . Hehehe . . . All in the equipment . . .

Now I'm just confused. Do you equate ECL and CR as the same for this test?

Yes. (All protagonists are under ECL20)

Then again, maybe not. Perhaps the real thing that needs to be proven is that the equipment won't give the Quasi-deity the upper-hand. Or not.

I think I can still win if we all have no magical equipment.

Hmmm . . . First question here is: Do you equate CR and ECL as the same for this test, as per your rules in Asgard 6, or is the ECL and CR different?

The same.

Basically, your ECL (used to determine CR) and the core definition of ECL (used to determine character level for unusual characters) seem to be two entirely different things at the moment.

I know.

For them ECL is used to balance PCs. I use ECL for both PCs and NPCs.

Clear this up for us all,

Okay.

and I'll start making my characters.

I already know the outcome (after preliminary examination of the matter last night) but I am happy to continue if you wish.

For Simon, when I post my characters, I will also include the definitions of all abilities not in the core rules. I'll try not to include any really fancy Prestige Classes, and I'll use only core races so as not to confuse the issue with other creatures with an ECL change.

Try and keep things as simple as possible.

I'll post my characters as soon as they are finished. The characters I create will all be characters under I would play in any normal campaign with the powers to match.

Beef them up all you want (provided they are within the parameters we outlined previously).

One more thing, is there another board we should go to for this? Or does it fit the rules of the House Rules Forum since we're testing "House Rules"?

I would be happier having the fracas in another thread.

Knight Otu (hello mate! ) suggested the Fight Club forum. That sounds appropriate...?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Upper_Krust!

Hi Cheiromancer mate!

When did you stop considering Solars to be quasi-deities? And why? If it is the result of a posted discussion, could you post the link?

Technically they still should; however they are missing the ability score increases (and one or two other minor powers).

However, I may have to review how I assign divinity to Outsiders in general (?) unless you want Hecatonchieres with Divine Rank 8; or Atropals with Divine Rank 12.

Incidently Serge asked me recently about this point:

A while ago I revised my ideas on Greater Gods - to whit only Pantheon Heads (in a tight Pantheon) are Greater Powers*.

*Theres a bit more to it than that; a pantheon can have multiple Greater Gods but it only has 4 Divine Ranks over Divine Rank 15. So you can have:
DR19 (x1) = Odin or Tezcatlipoca or Zeus
DR18 (x1); DR16 (x1) = Ra + Osiris
DR17 (x2) = Ahriman + Ormazd (if detailed as Greater Gods, even I am not sure of that one yet!?)
DR17 (x1); DR16 (x2) = Brahma + Vishnu + Shiva
DR16 (x4) = Native American Seasonal Deities - whose individual names escape me offhand.

That caused me to review a number of facets like the Arch-Devils power. Asmodeus is two divine classes below (1st Ed. 400hp) Pantheon Heads. So if 400hp deities are the only Greater Gods he must be a Lesser Power.

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

By the Upper Krust, what is your opinion of relative ease with creating items giving huge bonuses to Spellcraft checks in relation to Epic Spellcasting? I suggest increasing prices by 10 and making a non-Epic cap at +20 bonus.

 

[Anabstercorian]

The Unknown Gods

Okay, I don't know how many of you have been around since the Judges Guild days (I sure haven't!) but there's a project relating to them that I have become happily embroiled in. There's an old book called The Unknown Gods, a 44 page book of about 84 deities of quasi- to lesser- power. Anyway, I'm hoping to convert them to 3e, and I also hope that I'll be lucky enough to use your product while doing so. SO... When's The Immortal's Handbook coming out?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Important Announcement

Hi all!

Just wanted to let you know that Necromancer Games have a preview of their forthcoming book Tome of Horrors on the web.

http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/Tome_Teaser.pdf

So why is this relevant here you ask. Well, aside from Scott Greene being a good friend of mine, yours truly is named under the very special thanks heading in the credits. As most of you know Scott and I swopped a lot of ideas a while back on unique Outsider types many of whom can be found in the Tome of Horrors (a few of which are in the preview).

While this is far from his first work in print; I am very happy for him finally getting the recognition (in print) for all his sterling efforts with his website:

http://www.enworld.org/cc

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Melkor mate!

By the Upper Krust, what is your opinion of relative ease with creating items giving huge bonuses to Spellcraft checks in relation to Epic Spellcasting? I suggest increasing prices by 10 and making a non-Epic cap at +20 bonus.

I have been giving the Epic Spells some scrutiny and I think the major problem is that its too easy to increase save DCs.

In my opinion it should be:

+1 DC = +1 Spellcraft DC
+2 DC = +4
+3 DC = +9
+4 DC = +16
etc.

I'm not sure if this should also be applied to Spell Resistance as well - I'll have to look into it more.

As for the items themselves. An item that bestowed +100 to Spellcraft would cost 2 million gp (1 million GP & 40,000 XP to create). Essentially this can effectively mimic a 10,000XP spellcasting cost.

However, to fully make use of the +100 Spellcraft DC remember that you have to research the spell - and the more powerful the spell the higher the costs. Also if you somehow lose the Item you will no longer be able to cast the spell! So I'm not sure if this should be a cause for concern (after my above addendum anyway).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: The Unknown Gods

Hi Anabstercorian mate!

I don't know much about the Judges Guild stuff myself; what more can you tell me?

Okay, I don't know how many of you have been around since the Judges Guild days (I sure haven't!) but there's a project relating to them that I have become happily embroiled in. There's an old book called The Unknown Gods, a 44 page book of about 84 deities of quasi- to lesser- power.

Someone mentioned Judges Guild to me earlier today...

Anyway, I'm hoping to convert them to 3e,

...they could be working on translating some Judges Guild stuff to 3rd Ed (they only mentioned the possibility in passing - I may have picked them up wrong?). Just thought you might be interested.

and I also hope that I'll be lucky enough to use your product while doing so.

Appreciate the love mate!

How are the deities detailed (?); as per (1st Ed.) Deities & Demigods? If so it should be simplicity itself to convert them.

SO... When's The Immortal's Handbook coming out?

Ask Wizards of the Coast, they're the ones hamstringing me!

When I have some solid news you will all be the first to know!

 

[Anubis]

Something just occured to me . . . When you base all this on ECL, you get slanted results if you give wealth based on ECL instead of character level!

It just hit me, if you gave a Level 5 character the wealth of a Level 40 character, he'd still be able to give a challenge to an Epic party!

Does this mean that my Xun Huo, the Level 40 Wizard with Divine Rank 2, would actually, by my assumption, be ECL 72, with the wealth of a Level 72 character?!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello mate!

Something just occured to me . . . When you base all this on ECL, you get slanted results if you give wealth based on ECL instead of character level!

Most wealth (or treasure) is based on ECL (or CR) though.

eg. a 22nd-level Wizard Demilich should have treasure commensurate with 30th-level in my opinion.

It just hit me, if you gave a Level 5 character the wealth of a Level 40 character, he'd still be able to give a challenge to an Epic party!

Think of it as equating wealth with power, not necessarily levels alone.

Why should a 5th-level character have the treasure of a 40th-level character?

Does this mean that my Xun Huo, the Level 40 Wizard with Divine Rank 2, would actually, by my assumption, be ECL 72,

Divine Rank 2 is ECL +28.

So that would be +68 ECL (unless there is something about Xun Huo I can't recollect?)

with the wealth of a Level 72 character?!

Well if its a PC it has its own wealth.

If you were creating it at that power I would advocate the 68th-level PC wealth. If you were creating such an NPC use their wealth at 68th-level.

 

[Anabstercorian]

The gods are given hit points, a description of powers, basic combat statistics, and level equivalent ability for casting spells and fighting. To be honest, the gods are terribly written - I'm going to have to tread lightly to produce a version of them that is useful yet still true to their original format.