Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Serge mate!

Really? When do we get to see this gem?

Well I may include it as one of the sample deities. The Elder God, Overgod, Entity and Time Lord examples are a necessity since no one knows what they are like.

I may also include a Greater God example since my own treatment of greater gods is slightly different. This would be Wotan - since that lets me rework Odin without actually reworking him.

So I may include samples for the other measures of power, although I don't want to step on the toes of the Iconics characters.

One option would be to use Ahriman as the Overgod example, then you can simply determine Asmodeus stats from that (Asmodeus would be the Avatar of the Avatar in that case).

But I had another deity in mind for that example and I am not convinced (at the moment) if Ahriman is best served as an Overgod anyway?

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

Hi Upper Krust! I finally got Deities and Demigods as my birthday gift, along with ELH and I rather agree with you that there should be only one Greater God per pantheon. I decided to rework The Greek Pantheon a bit, I found it annoying that half of Deities there has Divine Rank of 15.

Zeus, Divine Rank 17(hit dice 100), I dropped him despite your suggestions to leave Pantheon heads as they are, for I think that alliance between, let`s say Hades and Poseidon, should be able to threaten Zeus.
Poseidon and Hades, DVR 15, HD of 85( as rulers of kingdoms of water and earth).
Hera, Athena, DVR 14, HD of 80 Hera is The Queen Of Gods and Athena has the broadest portfolio in Pantheon.
Apollo, DVR 13, HD of 75, important and vast portfolios.
Aphrodite, Ares, DVR 12, HD 70, Love and War are important portfolios.
Hermes, Demeter, DVR 11, HD 65, both are likely to be commonly worshipped by those that depend upon them( Hermes: thieves and merchants, Demeter: farmers).
Arthemis, DVR 10, HD 60, Hunting and Childbith are rather Lesser than Intermediate concepts.
Dionisos, DVR 9, mostly worshipped by his dedicated followers
Hecate, DVR 8, HD 50, not even an Olympian Deity.
Hestia, DVR 7, HD 45.
Tyche, DVR 6, HD 40
Hercules, DVR 5, HD 40
Pan, DVR 4, HD 37
Nike, DVR 3, HD 35

Do you think that this is more logical than Deities and Demigods version( I have used your Hit Dice averages corresponding to Divine Rank). And by the way, Upper Krust, what is your opinion on ELH? I personally like it, though some Epic Spells seem a bit underpowered compared to their DC( unless you give every epic spellcaster magic items with bonuses to Spellcraft).

 

[The Serge]

Hi Serge mate!



Well I may include it as one of the sample deities. The Elder God, Overgod, Entity and Time Lord examples are a necessity since no one knows what they are like.

I may also include a Greater God example since my own treatment of greater gods is slightly different. This would be Wotan - since that lets me rework Odin without actually reworking him.

So I may include samples for the other measures of power, although I don't want to step on the toes of the Iconics characters.

One option would be to use Ahriman as the Overgod example, then you can simply determine Asmodeus stats from that (Asmodeus would be the Avatar of the Avatar in that case).

But I had another deity in mind for that example and I am not convinced (at the moment) if Ahriman is best served as an Overgod anyway?

If he's not an Overgod, how would you rank Ahriman? Personally (and I'm being entirely selfish), I think Ahriman would be an excellent choice since I am curious to see yourAsmodeus.

Who else were you thinking of? Not the entity that created both Ahura Mazda and Ahriman (in some Zoroasterinian myths, I think Ormazd created the two and, although he's more "neutral" than good, he wants "good" to win...). Surely, he's higher than that, right?

Gaia or Uranus. I've always seen the two of them as greater than the Olympians (not necessarily Uranus as Chronus castrated him ).

 

[Anubis]

Hi Anubis mate!



True to an extent. It does tell you when you gain SDAs - it just doesn't tell you how to gain Divine Ranks...to get SDAs.



Actually, pg. 32 under the heading "Salient Divine Abilities":

A salient divine ability is like a feat - it gives a deity new capabilities or improves one that the deity already has. As noted earlier a deity has one salient divine ability for each divine rank the deity has plus additional salient divine abilities reflecting its status: Demigods recieve one bonus ability, lesser deities recieve two bonus abilities; intermediate deities receive three and greater deities receive five."



A Hero-deity has none.



D&Dg page 32.



Gain Worship Points (as per the Immortals Handbook)
Worship Points give you Divine Ranks.
Divine Ranks give you Salient Divine Abilities.

Simple as that.



DR0 = 0 SDA

DR1 = 2
DR2 = 3
DR3 = 4
DR4 = 5
DR5 = 6

DR6 = 8
DR7 = 9
DR8 = 10
DR9 = 11
DR10 = 12

DR11 = 14
DR12 = 15
DR13 = 16
DR14 = 17
DR15 = 18

DR16 = 21
DR17 = 22
DR18 = 23
DR19 = 24
DR20 = 25

For the record:

Elder Gods DR+7
Overgods DR+10
Entities DR+13

WOW! I didn't see that when I was reading through the book before! I kept searching and searching and just couldn't find it before!

Thanks for pointing out where it is for me! You're the best!

Unfortunately, I now have one more question, this one more from my DM . . . How do you handle ability score increases for deities? I KNOW D&D doesn't cover this one, although if it doesn, merely point me to the right page.

How many ability score points does one get upon achieving godhood, and how often does he or she gain points? Once I have this, I think I can finally ascend to godhood.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Upper Krust!

Hi Melkor mate!

Hope you have been keeping well mate!?

I finally got Deities and Demigods as my birthday gift,

Happy Birthday mate!

along with ELH

DOH! Someone else with the ELH while I sit here floundering (I should have it by Saturday at the latest - or so I have been told).

and I rather agree with you that there should be only one Greater God per pantheon.

As a general rule yes.

Though I could see Pantheons ruled by twin gods, or some other sort of cabal that would permit more than one. However, in cases with more than one Greater God in a Pantheon they will be relatively weaker than a monarch that is unchallenged.

ie. I would give Greater Gods in a Pantheon a total of 4 Divine Ranks above 15.

eg.
- Odin DR19
- Zeus DR17, Poseidon DR16, Hades DR16.
- Ahriman DR17, Ormazd DR17
- Ra DR18, Osiris DR16.
- Brahma DR17, Vishnu DR16, Shiva DR16.

It was stupid of TSR to introduce the Intermediate Status then not use it properly.

I decided to rework The Greek Pantheon a bit, I found it annoying that half of Deities there has Divine Rank of 15.

Deities & Demigods is a bit of a mess. Personally I hate the way pretty much all the deities have the same HD/Levels (with a few exceptions).

Zeus, Divine Rank 17(hit dice 100), I dropped him despite your suggestions to leave Pantheon heads as they are, for I think that alliance between, let`s say Hades and Poseidon, should be able to threaten Zeus.
Poseidon and Hades, DVR 15, HD of 85( as rulers of kingdoms of water and earth).

I would elevate Poseidon and Hades to DR16 if you are going to lower Zeus.

Though personally I prefer Zeus at DR19, but I just like him up there with Odin.

Hera, Athena, DVR 14, HD of 80 Hera is The Queen Of Gods and Athena has the broadest portfolio in Pantheon.

Apollo, DVR 13, HD of 75, important and vast portfolios.

Aphrodite, Ares, DVR 12, HD 70, Love and War are important portfolios.

Hermes, Demeter, DVR 11, HD 65, both are likely to be commonly worshipped by those that depend upon them( Hermes: thieves and merchants, Demeter: farmers).

Arthemis, DVR 10, HD 60, Hunting and Childbirth are rather Lesser than Intermediate concepts.

Dionisos, DVR 9, mostly worshipped by his dedicated followers

Hecate, DVR 8, HD 50, not even an Olympian Deity.

Hestia, DVR 7, HD 45.

Tyche, DVR 6, HD 40

Hercules, DVR 5, HD 40

Pan, DVR 4, HD 37

Nike, DVR 3, HD 35

As a general rule I would drop every deity in D&Dg by 3 DR with the exceptions of Pantheon Heads (or those you want to be Greater Gods) and Demigods.

Do you think that this is more logical than Deities and Demigods version

Anything is more logical than that!

You went up a bit high on the intermediate and greater deities (my suggested averages are).

DR11 60-63 HD
DR12 64-67 HD
DR13 68-71 HD
DR14 72-75 HD
DR15 76-79 HD

DR16 80-87 HD
DR17 88-95 HD
DR18 96-103 HD
DR19 104-111 HD
DR20 112-119 HD

DR21 120-127 HD

DR26 160-175 HD

DR31 240-255 HD

DR36 320-351 HD

(I have used your Hit Dice averages corresponding to Divine Rank).

Appreciate the love mate!

And by the way, Upper Krust, what is your opinion on ELH?

I'll let you know when I get it!

From what I know a number of the Challenge Ratings could use my touch.

I personally like it, though some Epic Spells seem a bit underpowered compared to their DC( unless you give every epic spellcaster magic items with bonuses to Spellcraft).

The Epic Spell section is one of the areas I am most looking forward too.

Incidently I have an idea to determine Pantheon Size. A Pantheon has as many members as its ruler has Divine Ranks (not counting Hero-deities). Greater Gods don't count towards this.

eg. Odin DR19 means the Norse Pantheon could have 19 other deities under his leadership.

This actually works quite well - older deities that have faded away become Hero-deities (Einheriar, Valkyries etc.).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Serge mate!

If he's not an Overgod, how would you rank Ahriman?

Maybe as a Divine Rank 17 Greater God with his brother Ormazd at the same level of power? The two ruling the Persian Pantheon.

The Persian Pantheon is a bit of a bastard though. I'm just not totally convinced yet one way or the other.

Personally (and I'm being entirely selfish), I think Ahriman would be an excellent choice since I am curious to see yourAsmodeus.

Who else were you thinking of?

I wanted one 'Uber-deity' from each of the Egyptian; Greek and Norse Pantheons to 'feed off' D&Dg material.

eg. Surtur is a Norse Elder God.

Not the entity that created both Ahura Mazda and Ahriman (in some Zoroasterinian myths, I think Ormazd created the two and, although he's more "neutral" than good, he wants "good" to win...). Surely, he's higher than that, right?

Zurvan/Eternity is mentioned, but isn't the 'Entity' example I am using.

Gaia or Uranus. I've always seen the two of them as greater than the Olympians (not necessarily Uranus as Chronus castrated him ).

Well Gaia is an Avatar of...

 

[Anubis]

On a somewhat unrelated note, as this question is about epic characters more than gods, how much equipment should epic PC and epic NPCs start with?

The ELH only goes up to Level 40, and there is absolutely NO system for getting the numbers they come up with.

Here is the table for PCs:

21: 975,000
22: 1,200,000
23: 1,500,000
24: 1,800,000
25: 2,100,000
26: 2,500,000
27: 2,900,000
28: 3,300,000
29: 3,800,000
30: 4,300,000
31: 4,900,000
32: 5,600,000
33: 6,300,000
34: 7,000,000
35: 7,900,000
36: 8,800,000
37: 9,900,000
38: 11,000,000
39: 12,300,000
40: 13,600,000

See? NO system WHATSOEVER! Just random numbers!

Here is the NPC table, which only goes to Level 30:

21: 240,000
22: 265,000
23: 290,000
24: 320,000
25: 350,000
26: 390,000
27: 430,000
28: 470,000
29: 520,000
30: 570,000

This time, however, the book DOES tell what to do about higher levels, saying "If you're creating an NPC of higher than 30th level, simply continue the progression, increasing the treasure value by about 10% from the previous level."

That's good, but my problem here is that these NPCs are SEVERELY underpowered. There is NO WAY a Level 30 NPC could compete with a Level 30 PC using this table, so it's obviously broken. (The obvious solution is to simply use the PC table for both PCs and NPCs.)

Anyway, would you suggest the +10% per level to PCs as well, or do you have some better system that would work out better?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis!

I have my reply to your earlier post ready (about Ability Scores) - but I want to work on it - I had a few new ideas just there now.

Incidently I think I have a solution to the PC wealth tables.

Try:

Level x Level x Level x Level x 5 GP

...?

Anyway...think its time I got my dinner.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello Anubis mate!

WOW! I didn't see that when I was reading through the book before! I kept searching and searching and just couldn't find it before!

Thanks for pointing out where it is for me! You're the best!

Unfortunately, I now have one more question,

Sure, fire away!

this one more from my DM . . .

Hello Anubis' DM!

How do you handle ability score increases for deities? I KNOW D&D doesn't cover this one, although if it does, merely point me to the right page.

No, it doesn't cover this.

I suggest:

+6 Divine Bonus to Every Ability Score

+5 Inherant Bonus to Every Ability Score (Unless already benefitted from wishes etc.)

eg. If you have already raised Strength with 2 wishes you only get +3 more to strength.

You still gain your +1 bonus per 4 Class Levels

Also you gain +1 bonus per Divine Rank

So 20th-level Fighter
Str 18 +6 (24) +5 (29) then another +5 from 20 Class Levels (34)
Dex 16 +6 (22) +5 (27)
Con 16 +6 (22) +5 (27)
Int 11 +6 (17) +5 (22)
Wis 13 +6 (19) +5 (24)
Cha 11 +6 (17) +5 (22)

An optional idea is to allow the +6 Divine Bonus to be spread by removing two and adding one to other scores.

eg. The fighter may want to put +12 Divine Bonus into Strength. This means he only gains +4 Divine Bonus to every other score.

Str 18 +12 (30) +5 (35) then another +5 from 20 Class Levels (40)
Dex 16 + 4 (20) +5 (25)
Con 16 + 4 (20) +5 (25)
Int 11 +4 (15) +5 (20)
Wis 13 +4 (17) +5 (22)
Cha 11 +4 (15) +5 (20)

This way a deity like Bhagtru (of the Orcs) can pump more into Strength and not have to worry about improving silly things like Intelligence!

How many ability score points does one get upon achieving godhood, and how often does he or she gain points?

Class Levels continue as before. +1 (total) per 4 Levels

You also gain +1 (total) per Divine Rank.

Once I have this, I think I can finally ascend to godhood.

The reason I delayed this post was that I wanted to check on the Solar. As I see it now the Solar is NOT a Hero-deity until it actually gains the above increase to ability scores.

Even D&Dg is confused on the issue of whether Quasi-deities gain ability score increases (Valkyries do have them and Einheriar don't).

So the Solar (Hero-deity) would have:

Str: 39 (equal to a Storm Giants*)
Dex: 31
Con: 31
Int: 34
Wis: 36
Cha: 36

*As per 1st Ed. coincidently.

The Solars CR becomes 23 (standard) and 26 (Hero-deity)

 

[Knight Otu]

Hi, all!

Anubis: The PC wealth table actually goes up by 10% by level, too, rounded to the nearest 10,000. I'm pretty sure something along this line is said in the Epic Adventures chapter.

Upper_Krust: I'm still not fully convinced that there should be one greater god per pantheon, though I do agree that the D&DG overdoes it (both in terms of the number of Greater Gods and the similarity of total levels of the gods. There should be greater diversity). I like the idea of using the pantheon head's DvR to determine pantheon size, though!
(We could really run wild with those Divine Ranks, using the portfolio (or concepts) of the gods to determine their DvR! )