Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis and Knight Otu!

Yes the current advancement rules are whacko.

I suggest using my CR system to determine advancement as well:

Tarrasque 48HD ECL29/CR24
Tarrasque 96HD ECL53/CR33

Solar 22HD ECL 27/CR23 (remember I changed it recently because I no longer consider them quasi-deities)
Solar 44HD ECL45/CR31

 

[Aloïsius]

Re: Re: stupid nitpicking

Hi Aloïsius mate!



Well then whoever wrote the D&D faq doesn't know what they are talking about!


So the evidence is at least 6:1 in my favour.

As always ...
I did not check the MM immediatly after reading the faq, and when I did I was unable to log in to edit my post...

My brother (Gez) and me are still waiting (patiently ? ) the IH (he even bought D&D, faith and pantheon and, probably the ELH, just to be able to use it. May WotC hurry up ! When the IH will be available, I know someone who will have no excuse for not DMing a high level campaign

 

[Aloïsius]

CR

Oh, and UK, have you see in the thread about SKR rant this proposal : make CR adjustment like Armor Class (+5 natural, +2 dex) > (+1 high damage, -1 no ranged attack) ? Did you think it could be a usefull addition to your CR system ?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: stupid nitpicking

Hi Aloïsius mate!

As always ...
I did not check the MM immediatly after reading the faq, and when I did I was unable to log in to edit my post...

My brother (Gez)

Wait a second...Gez is your brother!? How come I didn't know this before? Tell him I said hi!

and me are still waiting (patiently ? ) the IH (he even bought D&D, faith and pantheon and, probably the ELH, just to be able to use it.

Well I truly appreciate the support guys.

May WotC hurry up ! When the IH will be available, I know someone who will have no excuse for not DMing a high level campaign

Absolutely.

Oh, and UK, have you see in the thread about SKR rant this proposal :

Yes I saw the thread, I replied to Ryan Dancey about my article in Asgard #6 and he emailed me back; congratulating me on it...which was nice!

make CR adjustment like Armor Class (+5 natural, +2 dex) > (+1 high damage, -1 no ranged attack) ? Did you think it could be a usefull addition to your CR system ?

That is essentially how I do things anyway. Of course you can always think up more variables to throw at it than I have created.

Though I now have modifiers for NPC classes; adding ability scores; increasing size etc.

I think the moderators are going to shut this thread down shortly.

 

[poilbrun]

Re: Re: stupid nitpicking

I think the moderators are going to shut this thread down shortly.

Not so sure, it seems several threads now are over 200 posts...

Take a look here!

 

[Anubis]

*BURP*bump*FART*

Oh, excuse me!

 

[Anubis]

Have you looked at the 1st-level Fighter and the 15th-level Fighter? +3 weapon vs. DR35/+4
.
.
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I don't agree. But I would be happy to discuss your evidence?

Alrighty then, happily. ECL +10 means CR +10, making the DvR 0 Level 1 Fighter CR 11. Although NPCs and PCS of the same level are the same CR, the PCs generally have more power. By Level 11, most PC fighters (Level 11 PCs get 66000 gp of wealth on average) will have a +4 weapon and will thus kill the DvR 0 in a single hit. Even without a +4 weapon, most fighters I know invest in Sure Striking early with their first weapon, so a Longsword +1 of Sure Striking means the end of that fight in favor of the Level 11 Fighter.

The fact that we are talking about CR, however, means we're talking about a PARTY of Level 11 characters, and there are any number of ways a party of that power could obliterate a Level 1 DvR 0. The party cleric could cast a Maximized Searing Light that would certainly kill the deity in a single hit, I already showed that the fighter could do it, the roge with a weapon with Sure Striking could flank the deity and use Sneak Attack to kill him or her, and the wizard could use a Maximized Magic Missile to do the trick.

Is that sufficient?

As for DvR 1 being +20 ECL, I feel that any party would need Epic Power to stand against a deity with such abilities, because most of the deities' better abilities kick in at DvR 1, although good Initiative would still spell death for the deity even at lesser levels.

The real issue here is that Level 1 characters should not be deities under any circumstance. Hell, I'd almost make being Epic Power (Level 21+) a requirement for becoming a deity.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Alrighty then, happily. ECL +10 means CR +10, making the DvR 0 Level 1 Fighter CR 11.

I understand your premise, I just didn't agree with it.

I'm not pulling these figures out of thin air. I have a method behind my madness you know!

Although NPCs and PCS of the same level are the same CR, the PCs generally have more power.

True but thats a constant. Probably to always give PCs that slight edge.

Also I advocate wealth be adjudicated by ECL rather than simply HD/Level.

By Level 11, most PC fighters (Level 11 PCs get 66000 gp of wealth on average) will have a +4 weapon and will thus kill the DvR 0 in a single hit.

Not according to the DMGs 'typical' NPCs.

As a good rule of thumb I would say divide character level by four and round down to find weapon enhancement bonus.

Though perhaps dividing by three is closer to 'typical' campaigns.

Even without a +4 weapon, most fighters I know invest in Sure Striking early with their first weapon, so a Longsword +1 of Sure Striking means the end of that fight in favor of the Level 11 Fighter.

Sure Striking is certainly a possibility, though hardly de rigeur. Its not even a core rulebook ability.

The fact that we are talking about CR, however, means we're talking about a PARTY of Level 11 characters, and there are any number of ways a party of that power could obliterate a Level 1 DvR 0.

Given prior knowledge of their target; time to plan; and the appropriate access to magic items, possibly.

Remember the Quasi-deity will be smarter than the party and more wise than the party.

The party cleric could cast a Maximized Searing Light that would certainly kill the deity in a single hit,

Which almost certainly wouldn't penetrate the deities Spell Resistance.

I already showed that the fighter could do it,

Well you proffered an example: heavily weighed in favour of the PCs who somehow already know they are fighting a Quasi-deity (and have planned accordingly), rather than a typical character.

the rogue with a weapon with Sure Striking could flank the deity and use Sneak Attack to kill him or her,

Any enemy can be beaten with the right information; planning and equipment. But this will of course affect the CR of the encounter.

and the wizard could use a Maximized Magic Missile to do the trick.

Likely won't pass Spell Resistance even with the Spell Penetration Feat.

Is that sufficient?

Nope.

As for DvR 1 being +20 ECL,

Well I think +24 ECL myself.

I feel that any party would need Epic Power to stand against a deity with such abilities, because most of the deities' better abilities kick in at DvR 1, although good Initiative would still spell death for the deity even at lesser levels.

Well a party of x4 18th-level characters would rate a 50/50 chance against a 1st-level Fighter Demigod if we adhere strictly to the system.

The real issue here is that Level 1 characters should not be deities under any circumstance.

I agree. Though the real issue is trying to gauge and measure the power of divinity.

Hell, I'd almost make being Epic Power (Level 21+) a requirement for becoming a deity.

Something I have of course advocated from the beginning.

 

[Anubis]

Not according to the DMGs 'typical' NPCs.

CR is a measure of power of a creature again four PCs, however, so the "typical NPCs" are a moot point as they don't matter because they have no place in the discussion. We're talking about PCs, not NPCs. I don't know any PC fighter who won't have either a +4 weapon or Sure Striking by Level 11.

As a good rule of thumb I would say divide character level by four and round down to find weapon enhancement bonus.

Though perhaps dividing by three is closer to 'typical' campaigns.

I imagine 2.5 (rounding up) would be more accurate for PCs.

Sure Striking is certainly a possibility, though hardly de rigeur. Its not even a core rulebook ability.

It's still a viable ability, and most campaigns use that book anyway.

Given prior knowledge of their target; time to plan; and the appropriate access to magic items, possibly.

That's not necessary. Most parties will have the kind of abilities needed memorized/prepared/acquired in at least one instance for ANY encounter, not just for those with deities.

Remember the Quasi-deity will be smarter than the party and more wise than the party.

Not if he or she is dumb enough at Level 1 to challenge a Level 11 party!

Which almost certainly wouldn't penetrate the deities Spell Resistance.

I'll give you this one. The cleric and wizard could still find useful things to do, however, such as Haste, Bull's Strength, etc.

Well you proffered an example: heavily weighed in favour of the PCs who somehow already know they are fighting a Quasi-deity (and have planned accordingly), rather than a typical character.

As I already said, most parties will have those things prepared anyway, mainly because you never know what nasty creature you may find.

Any enemy can be beaten with the right information; planning and equipment. But this will of course affect the CR of the encounter.

I feel it doesn't apply in this case, though. Fighters and rogues will buy weapons with Sure Striking anyway just to be safe, and clerics and fighters have plenty of spells that could be useful even if not in a direct way.

Well I think +24 ECL myself.

Please explain that. I see no reason why (by your rules) a Level 22-23 character couldn't kill a deity as easily as a Level 24-25 character would. (Level 1 DvR1 would be ECL 25=CR 22, Level 24-25=CR 22, Level 22-23=CR 21) I can see, however, how Epic Power characters can do what non-Epic Power characters could not. That's what I consider the turning point.

I agree. Though the real issue is trying to gauge and measure the power of divinity.

I agree. Unfortunately, that divinity is more or less powerful depending on the initial power of the wielder. THAT is the true problem. DvR 0 means much more with Epic Power than with a Level 1 character.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

CR is a measure of power of a creature against four PCs, however, so the "typical NPCs" are a moot point as they don't matter because they have no place in the discussion. We're talking about PCs, not NPCs.

I thought the target quasi-deity (we were discussing) was an NPC.

I don't know any PC fighter who won't have either a +4 weapon or Sure Striking by Level 11.

Considering you need a 12th-level spellcaster casting Greater Magic Weapon to gain a +4 weapon I would suggest that PCs gaining +4 enhancement bonus weapons before 12th-level are in an overtly magical campaign.

If you give noticeably better than 'typical' magic items then you must adjust the CR rules accordingly.

I imagine 2.5 (rounding up) would be more accurate for PCs.

Thats well beyond 'typical' averages.

+5 weapons at 13th-level is possible, but such high magic campaigns will have a noticable affect on CRs.

It's still a viable ability, and most campaigns use that book anyway.

Its certainly viable but (as I mentioned) its hardly likely more than one PC (if any) will have such a weapon.

That's not necessary. Most parties will have the kind of abilities needed memorized/prepared/acquired in at least one instance for ANY encounter, not just for those with deities.

Yes, but why would a Fighter use his +1 sure striking weapon in favour of his +3 brilliant energy weapon.

Not if he or she is dumb enough at Level 1 to challenge a Level 11 party!

Exactly my point.

I'll give you this one.

The cleric and wizard could still find useful things to do, however, such as Haste, Bull's Strength, etc.

But first; how would they know their opponent was a quasi-deity? They wouldn't. So their initial assault would prove ineffective. Also they wouldn't necessarily know the power/defenses of a quasi-deity even when their initial assault proves ineffective.

As I already said, most parties will have those things prepared anyway, mainly because you never know what nasty creature you may find.

Exactly. They won't have the information to plan ahead and it won't be immediately obvious they are fighting anything other than a regular character.

I feel it doesn't apply in this case, though. Fighters and rogues will buy weapons with Sure Striking anyway just to be safe,

I don't necessarily agree.

and clerics and fighters have plenty of spells that could be useful even if not in a direct way.

After they discern the quasi-deities true nature.

Please explain that. I see no reason why (by your rules) a Level 22-23 character couldn't kill a deity as easily as a Level 24-25 character would. (Level 1 DvR1 would be ECL 25=CR 22, Level 24-25=CR 22, Level 22-23=CR 21) I can see, however, how Epic Power characters can do what non-Epic Power characters could not. That's what I consider the turning point.

I don't quite understand the question?

Divinity (as I have rated it) is measured by the list of the deities defenses and powers. The quasi-deity power also factors in the mammoth ability score modifiers.

I agree. Unfortunately, that divinity is more or less powerful depending on the initial power of the wielder. THAT is the true problem. DvR 0 means much more with Epic Power than with a Level 1 character.

Thats just like saying a 44th-level character is better than a 24th-level one though.