Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

S'mon · Sep 4, 2002

I suggest that typical weapon effective '+' for PCs is probably 1/3 levels, rounded down, up to level 15, +1 per '+' thereafter, but free purchase of MI will definitely alter this.

Upper_Krust · Sep 4, 2002

Hi Simon!

S'mon said:
I agree about Greater Magic Weapon, but rem it has a very long duration. I think your above suggestion therefore is a bit magic-light for a DMG-standard game. As far as PCs in a 'standard' campaign goes, I suggest that weapons should probably be about +1 per 3 levels, rounded down, and including special powers - so eg a +3 Vorpal (effective +5 to +s) sword is +8. For NPCs it seems to be about +1/5 levels, though this varies by class, +1/4 levels would also work.

However the 30%/level wealth increase allows for PCs having +10-effect weapons at 20th level. I think GMW in most campaigns is used to boost the +1-Vorpal (or whatever) to +5 (or whatever), ie making a +6-effect weapon into effectively a +10-effect (or better) weapon.

My scores were merely for the enhancement bonuses. As per the DMG you can create weapon abilities up to your allowed enhancement bonus.

So +3 at 10th-level could mean +3 defending; flaming burst weapon etc.

S'mon · Sep 4, 2002

Hi Craig - taking the Enhancement bonus alone, it's probably reasonable to expect that in a DMG-standard campaign the top fighters in the typical min-maxed PC group could have weapon & armour +s equal to 1/3 their level, rounded down, ie +5 weapons at 15th, as this is what the party Wizard can theoretically create, although it may be less if they go for special powers instead. Anything over this is noticeably magic-heavy though, I agree. For secondary combatants (cleric, rogue) maybe 1/4 or 1/5. For NPC fighter-types it appears to be more 1/4 or 1/5 though, skewed towards the top end, so maybe calculating it off 1/4 would give the best overall result? The 7th level PC fighters in my campaign currently have no magic weapons at all, BTW...

Anubis · Sep 4, 2002

S'mon said:
BTW if this 'sure striking' ability is such a dead-cert purchase for any PC, I suspect it's broken...

Not exactly. It'll be used by everyone until they can afford more powerful weapons, and it bypasses DR of up to +5. After that, though, the ability just takes up space. A fighter will like have the weapon until Level 13 or 14, but then replace it altogether with a new weapon with other enhancements, because DR won't be as much an issue anymore as the only thing in the MM with DR at +5 is Tarrasque, I think.

Anubis · Sep 4, 2002

Upper_Krust said:
Perhaps we should conduct such an experiment here, what do you think?

I'm game. How would you suggest we do that? Just create average PC character of that level and take all average rolls? Or do you have some genius way of conducting this experiment?

Upper_Krust · Sep 4, 2002

Hello mate!

Anubis said:
I'm game. How would you suggest we do that? Just create average PC character of that level and take all average rolls? Or do you have some genius way of conducting this experiment?

I was thinking we both make 28 point buy characters with average hit points.

You get x4 11th-level characters with PC wealth (66,000gp each).

I get a 1st-level character Quasi-deity with 15th-level NPC wealth (59,000gp).

No items allowed that couldn't be created at that level or lower.

Otherwise anything goes. You can have sure striking all you want and I'll pick any items I want up to my allowed wealth.

I suppose we could get Simon to adjudicate the encounter if hes willing (?) and give him the details of each others plans of attack.

Round one could start within sight but out of range then see how we go from there. Knowledge of the opponent is simply that they are hostile.

What do you think?

S'mon · Sep 5, 2002

I'm game, but I don't use Sword & Fist IMC so I'd need details on that and other splatbook powers. I don't have DDG either since you dissuaded me from getting it!

Anubis · Sep 5, 2002

Upper_Krust said:
I get a 1st-level character Quasi-deity with 15th-level NPC wealth (59,000gp).

Well, since we're presumably trying to prove or disprove my theory/argument of DvR 0 actually being ECL +10 as opposed to your ECL +14, wouldn't it be more appropriate for your Quasi-deity to be a Level 1 character with Level 11 NPC wealth?

Or do you think that the test would work either which way, with my point being proven by finding a normal challenge at even the ECL +14 as opposed to my ECL +10, and your point being proven by my not being able to win at either level?

Actually, that last paragraph makes no sense. NOW I think I understand the difference between ECL and CR . . . Hehehe . . . All in the equipment . . .

Now I'm just confused. Do you equate ECL and CR as the same for this test?

Then again, maybe not. Perhaps the real thing that needs to be proven is that the equipment won't give the Quasi-deity the upper-hand. Or not.

Hmmm . . . First question here is: Do you equate CR and ECL as the same for this test, as per your rules in Asgard 6, or is the ECL and CR different? Basically, your ECL (used to determine CR) and the core definition of ECL (used to determine character level for unusual characters) seem to be two entirely different things at the moment. Clear this up for us all, and I'll start making my characters. For Simon, when I post my characters, I will also include the definitions of all abilities not in the core rules. I'll try not to include any really fancy Prestige Classes, and I'll use only core races so as not to confuse the issue with other creatures with an ECL change.

I'll post my characters as soon as they are finished. The characters I create will all be characters under I would play in any normal campaign with the powers to match.

One more thing, is there another board we should go to for this? Or does it fit the rules of the House Rules Forum since we're testing "House Rules"?

Knight Otu · Sep 5, 2002

Technically, the Fight Club boards would be appropriate for this, but it is mostly used for You Bastard duels.
It could propably be done here in house rules, I guess.