Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Anubis]

Re: Re: The Verdict

You missed the potential +30 Inherant Bonus to ability scores.

You can't count that. Many people who achieve godhood will already have these bonuses, which can only be obtained once anyway! Also, giving them this means they can no longer use the other method gaining inherent bonuses. They cancel each other out and thus do not count for ECL. There are way too many variables.

Or do you think a Level 30 character with +5 inherent to all scores is gonna get the same ECL modifier as a Level 20 character who has no inherent bonuses upon achieving godhood? Can't do that . . .

I don't rate either the Quasi-deity or Demigod templates the same way you do.

I rated them based on the ECL modifiers of the specific abilities. Can you contest ANY of them? I don't think so. Heck, half of the bonuses are rated the same as you rate them!

Go ahead, debate about the bonuses themselves. I was wrong about the typo, and conceded on the ability scores for simplicity's sake (it was an unnecessary recalculation, especially given the +60 Divine Bonus for deities, which you gave a good point on about flexibility), but I will be posting a new thread with my most recent findings, and you'll be amazed at the simplicity and accuracy! (I'll be posting it fresh in order to make it more updatable, and because these other two threads are getting crowded and mixed up.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Bonjour!

Bonjour mon ami Blacksad!

yes, it doesn't change the caster level check from level 1 to 20, but it change it above level 20.

I really don't like the idea of this.

I disagree, because I think it quickly break down (even at not so high level).

party level 40 CR 30, an easy challenge would be 8 CR under: CR 22.
CR 22 is a good challenge for level 24 character, so SR 35 and caster level check 1d20+22.

If one of the PC is a drow or a high level creature or has a magic item granting SR, this would allow the "orcs of the high level" to sometimes affect the character, as they are supposed to be still meaningful (they grant xp).

It works in the other side, with a creature 8 CR above (max allowed), the PC are still able to affect it 1d20+30 vs SR49.

While with your method CR38 is a good chalenge for level 56 PCs, which mean SR 67, which is completly impossible to attain by level 40 wizard. and the SR of low level creature completly loose its meaning.

I don't see the problem. A 56th-level PC = CR34. Therefore a CR38 opponent is the 50/50 mark for x4 56th-level PCs. A CR38 opponent is 72nd-level with SR 68.

You can't hold the hand of the d20 system all the way to infinity. At some point you have to just let it go.

yes, dragons uses a different formula, I think grazzt(?) the guy behind the creature catalog has figured the formula behind dragon SR.

Didn't he uncover that there was no actual formula, a dragons SR was its CR +7; 8 or 9.

It's still an issue when you face, very easy to kill creatures, or very hard to kill creatures IMO.

You can balance the SR against 4 PCs who would be 50/50 against it. Thats good enough for me.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: The Verdict

Hello again mate!

You can't count that. Many people who achieve godhood will already have these bonuses, which can only be obtained once anyway! Also, giving them this means they can no longer use the other method gaining inherent bonuses. They cancel each other out and thus do not count for ECL. There are way too many variables.

Or do you think a Level 30 character with +5 inherent to all scores is gonna get the same ECL modifier as a Level 20 character who has no inherent bonuses upon achieving godhood? Can't do that . . .

Agreed. Though I very much doubt even a 30th-level character will have already gained the maximum inherant bonus for ALL ability scores.

So there may be some flexibility therein. Perhaps it should be +16 after all...?

I rated them based on the ECL modifiers of the specific abilities. Can you contest ANY of them? I don't think so. Heck, half of the bonuses are rated the same as you rate them!

Go ahead, debate about the bonuses themselves.

Okay, lets take a look...

ECL +1 for 100% increase over normal movement
ECL +6 for +60 Divine Bonus to ability scores
ECL +1/2 for DR 24/+4
ECL +1 for Fire Resistance 20
ECL +2 for SR 30
ECL +1 for Transmutation Immunity
ECL +1 for Energy Drain, Ability Drain, and Ability Damage Immunity
ECL +1 for Mind-Affecting Effect Immunity
ECL +3 for Electricity, Cold, and Acid Immunity

+0.5 Speed
+0.5 Hit Points
+6 Ability Scores
+2 Damage Reduction
+2 Spell Resistance
+3.5 Immunities & Fire Resistance

I was wrong about the typo, and conceded on the ability scores for simplicity's sake (it was an unnecessary recalculation, especially given the +60 Divine Bonus for deities, which you gave a good point on about flexibility),

Thanks mate!

but I will be posting a new thread with my most recent findings, and you'll be amazed at the simplicity and accuracy!

Looking forward to it.

(I'll be posting it fresh in order to make it more updatable, and because these other two threads are getting crowded and mixed up.)

Good idea.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: The Verdict

+0.5 Speed
+0.5 Hit Points
+6 Ability Scores
+2 Damage Reduction
+2 Spell Resistance
+3.5 Immunities & Fire Resistance

I may concede on the speed issue, because otherwise monks would get a higher ECL as well. Your listing, however, cancels the argument out once the maximum hit points are factored in, so we start with +1 for that either which way.

We agree on the ability scores, so that gives us a +7 total now.

Starting with damage reduction is where we differ. I still advocate anything up to +5 be considered a "normal" SQ and counting as only ECL +1/2. My reasoning is simple. Basically, anything through +5 is within the normal core rules, and within those very same core rules, there are MANY way to circumvent damage reduction easily, the least of which being Sure Striking. Holy Sword can do it, as can Greater Magic Weapon, and most things in the core rules don't have gross damage reduction that can't be penetrated, so any which way you cut it, damage reduction up to +5 is quite limited in its usefulness. This is especially true when Sure Striking is a factor, because damage reduction is a moot point from then on. Once you get to +6 and above, though, you are then in Epic territory where things become MUCH more powerful, and the magic to circumvent such defenses is a rarity in any case. Take a look at the numbers once more, I think you'll find that ECL +1/2 works perfectly. As I said before, some things get too much of an ECL nod doing it the way you suggest. Don't raise it above +1/2 until Epic levels, and everything works out perfectly!

We agree on SR, so no debate here.

The Divine Immunities is where we clash the most. Are you telling me that you consider (assuming that you give the Fire Resistance ECL +1/2 as normal, which we can agree upon) immunity against Transmutation, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, Mind-Affecting Effects, Electricity, Cold, and Acid to be worth only +3?! You value each of those immunities at ECL +1/2 each?!?!?! This is something I can shoot down easily, because I once made the same mistake and got shot down myself. Starting with the Electricity, Cold, and Acid, do you mean to tell me that you consider IMMUNITY toward energy equally valuable as RESISTANCE toward energy? Resistance runs out, immunity is forever. The two are nowhere near the same value! I once considered giving resistance ECL based on the amount of resistance, but then it was pointed out to me that doing so made high resistances more valuable than immunity, which is absurd to say the least! Moving on to the others, I consider every grouping of immunities to be ECL +1, whereas you give them all ECL +1/2. My test for you is this: give those same immunities to the creature of your choice, and see if the ECL works out to +1/2 . . . I think you'll see that immunities are far more valuable than you realize! When factoring in each of those immunities, the character in question become impervious to approximately 80% of ALL magical attacks! Does that sound like ECL +1/2 each to you? No way, man . . . No way . . .

Anyway, that is my reasoning. Food for thought for ya'.

 

[Blacksad]

Bonjour mon ami Blacksad!

Salut Camarade U_K !

I really don't like the idea of this.

I perfectly understand this.

I don't see the problem. A 56th-level PC = CR34. Therefore a CR38 opponent is the 50/50 mark for x4 56th-level PCs. A CR38 opponent is 72nd-level with SR 68.

You can't hold the hand of the d20 system all the way to infinity. At some point you have to just let it go.

The problem is with level 40 PCs (CR30) who face a CR 38 opponent or vice-versa CR 30 creatures who face PC with SR based on the challenge they represent for a party of a given level.

"low level" (i.e. 40 ) invoker aren't at all a challenge for CR38 character, while they are still supposed to grant XP.

The +8 -8 range of CR should be covered IMO, or it kills part of the goal of updating the CR system in regards of spellcaster.

While my first exemple took something over the top, I tend to think that at level above 20, encounter with creatures several CR (up to 8) under the PCs CR, are more common than at mid-level (11-16).

and I don't think that ECL 40 is completly uncommon with gods

I think basing caster level check on CR solve the problem, without too much pain, and that if there is a solution (and a problem), I think the solution should be used instead of leaving the problem alone (at least a variant rule). Plus it makes calculating SR easier.

Didn't he uncover that there was no actual formula, a dragons SR was its CR +7; 8 or 9.

I think it was something crazy based on HD :confused

You can balance the SR against 4 PCs who would be 50/50 against it. Thats good enough for me.

not for me

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

for some inexplicable reason I haven't been able to access the boards for the past 24 hours.

However, that gave me the chance to review the ECL/CR system once and for all.

Testing shows the new system to be pretty much perfect. Though I have made a few changes (notably a few based on Anubis findings; thanks for that mate*)

*Although theres a lot we still disagree on.

Incidently I now rate Divine Rank 0 at +18 ECL (includes the full ability score spectrum). Divine Rank 1 is +28 ECL and each subsequent Divine Rank is +3 ECL. There are some issues with regards gained abilities at Lesser God or Greater God status but they are either negligable or not included in my rules (such as the perfect dice score for Greater Gods which I don't use...though you can gain such an ability).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Salut Camarade U_K !

Bonjour encore ami!

I perfectly understand this.

The problem is with level 40 PCs (CR30) who face a CR 38 opponent or vice-versa CR 30 creatures who face PC with SR based on the challenge they represent for a party of a given level.

"low level" (i.e. 40 ) invoker aren't at all a challenge for CR38 character, while they are still supposed to grant XP.

The +8 -8 range of CR should be covered IMO, or it kills part of the goal of updating the CR system in regards of spellcaster.

While my first exemple took something over the top, I tend to think that at level above 20, encounter with creatures several CR (up to 8) under the PCs CR, are more common than at mid-level (11-16).

and I don't think that ECL 40 is completly uncommon with gods

I think basing caster level check on CR solve the problem, without too much pain, and that if there is a solution (and a problem), I think the solution should be used instead of leaving the problem alone (at least a variant rule). Plus it makes calculating SR easier.

Maybe as an optional rule the idea has merit but I just don't see that its necessary.

Also by basing caster level check on CR are you taking into account templates; feats? etc.

I think it was something crazy based on HD

Dragon SR (and CR) are both rated far too low.

not for me

Enjoy house ruling it then.

 

[Cheiromancer]

However, that gave me the chance to review the ECL/CR system once and for all.

Testing shows the new system to be pretty much perfect. Though I have made a few changes (notably a few based on Anubis findings; thanks for that mate*)

*Although theres a lot we still disagree on.

Incidently I now rate Divine Rank 0 at +18 ECL (includes the full ability score spectrum). Divine Rank 1 is +28 ECL and each subsequent Divine Rank is +3 ECL. There are some issues with regards gained abilities at Lesser God or Greater God status but they are either negligable or not included in my rules (such as the perfect dice score for Greater Gods which I don't use...though you can gain such an ability).

Congratulations! Could you give a reprise of the final version?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Cheiromancer mate!

Congratulations! Could you give a reprise of the final version?

It'll be a few days before I post it. I'm going to be really busy tonight and tomorrow.

In the mean time check out something I posted here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25893

Incidently, for those of you using the epic rules I worked out the following:

- Demilich Template: +27 ECL (the Lich works out at +6 ECL; Demilich a further +21)

- Paragon Template: +36 ECL

- Pseudonatural Template: starts at
+18 ECL = 1HD

+20 ECL = 4HD
+21 ECL = 8HD
+22 ECL = 12HD
+23 ECL = 16HD

+25 ECL = 20HD
+26 ECL = 24HD
+27 ECL = 28HD
+28 ECL = 32HD

+30 ECL = 36HD
+31 ECL = 40HD
+32 ECL = 44HD
+33 ECL = 48HD

+35 ECL = 52HD
etc.

Continue at +1.25 ECL/4 HD

 

[S'mon]

Red Dragon!

Dragon SR (and CR) are both rated far too low.

Hi Craig! At what level do you (all) think a prepared PC group might have a chance against an unprepared young adult Red? Using U-K's CR system it works out CR 16 by my calculation, the MM rates it CR 12. My PC group is 8th level and fairly strong despite limited magic - they all have +1 weapons so DR isn't much of a problem. The SR 19 is though - half their spells will fail. Plus the Sorcerer is a Fireballer. The MM CR indicates it'd be a 50-50 fight. The revised CR indicates they'd need to be 12th level to stand a chance. My gut feeling is it might be nearer 16th...

Edit: You can assume the dragon has a 'smart' or 'min-maxed' spell choice for its caster level - I won't say more in case a player is reading!