Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Red Dragon!

Hi Craig!

Hey Simon!

At what level do you (all) think a prepared PC group might have a chance against an unprepared young adult Red? Using U-K's CR system it works out CR 16 by my calculation, the MM rates it CR 12. My PC group is 8th level and fairly strong despite limited magic - they all have +1 weapons so DR isn't much of a problem. The SR 19 is though - half their spells will fail. Plus the Sorcerer is a Fireballer. The MM CR indicates it'd be a 50-50 fight. The revised CR indicates they'd need to be 12th level to stand a chance. My gut feeling is it might be nearer 16th...

Edit: You can assume the dragon has a 'smart' or 'min-maxed' spell choice for its caster level - I won't say more in case a player is reading!

Using the latest CR system I work it out to be CR17.

That means you are talking 50/50 for a party of four 13th-level characters.

Cohorts will make a difference (remember party average is total levels divided by 4). But I still think you will need at least 52 levels.

I would say prior knowledge of the target would reduce it by maybe 1 CR; while the ability to plan/equip to specifically take on the Dragon probably a reduction of 2 CR (not stacking with the first reduction).

 

[-Eä-]

On character wealth by level

Greetings!

I'm just popping in now and then to give some advice on how to do things, because character wealth per level does not work.


Character wealth per level is broken, as per the official rules that exist now. The system follows a semi-exponential growth that is not applicaple at higher levels. Also, the character wealth is not accustomed at all to UK's modified CR-rules, at which the character wealth increase per level should decrease, not increase. Therefore, both 5*y^4 is broken, as is my a+b*c^SQRT(d+e*y) (which follows the official increase exactly for y>=21).

Cocnclusion: A new formula needs to be devised: One which follows the the formula for challenge ratings: i.e 10*ln(x/5)/ln(2), or else neither ECL nor CRs will work appropriatelly.

An easy way to do this is to calculate CR first, and then use the calculated result in the character wealth per level formula. Ie.: A level 40 character gets as much wealth as a level 30 character in the official rules. This way, the scale is not compromised.

As for UK's system (5*y^5): It works good for the first 50 CRs, but after that, the wealth degenerates, as per using CR as basis. If you're planning to use characters above CR 50, that system will not work (and for doing that, you will most probably need a calculator anyhow), so here is a system that works for doing character wealth by CR above CR 20 generally:
Insert CR into:
((1.56*10^-17)*(68^(0.867+SQRT(92.7+0.483*x)))-1340)*1000, where x=CR=10*ln(LVL/5)/ln(2)

Character wealth per level from this gives the following table:

        {"21", "912880.650043348`"},
        {"22", "1.070035925155234`*^6"},
        {"23", "1.230181683091631`*^6"},
        {"24", "1.3932263693725562`*^6"},
        {"25", "1.5590847077494117`*^6"},
        {"26", "1.7276770418196064`*^6"},
        {"27", "1.8989287680386156`*^6"},
        {"28", "2.0727698445474317`*^6"},
        {"29", "2.2491343633522196`*^6"},
        {"30", "2.42796017579729`*^6"},
        {"31", "2.609188563151244`*^6"},
        {"32", "2.792763945604702`*^6"},
        {"33", "2.97863362414932`*^6"},
        {"34", "3.166747550747995`*^6"},
        {"35", "3.357058122961791`*^6"},
        {"36", "3.5495199998127827`*^6"},
        {"37", "3.7440899361642725`*^6"},
        {"38", "3.9407266333099343`*^6"},
        {"39", "4.1393906038053245`*^6"},
        {"40", "4.340044048857896`*^6"},
        {"41", "4.54265074682587`*^6"},
        {"42", "4.747175951576703`*^6"},
        {"43", "4.953586299621858`*^6"},
        {"44", "5.161849725084643`*^6"},
        {"45", "5.371935381680943`*^6"},
        {"46", "5.583813570991471`*^6"},
        {"47", "5.797455676395417`*^6"},
        {"48", "6.012834102107623`*^6"},
        {"49", "6.229922216829072`*^6"},
        {"50", "6.448694301575602`*^6"},
        {"51", "6.669125501297899`*^6"},
        {"52", "6.891191779949859`*^6"},
        {"53", "7.11486987869832`*^6"},
        {"54", "7.340137277000149`*^6"},
        {"55", "7.566972156301108`*^6"},
        {"56", "7.795353366136711`*^6"},
        {"57", "8.025260392434418`*^6"},
        {"58", "8.256673327841636`*^6"},
        {"59", "8.489572843915747`*^6"},
        {"60", "8.72394016502946`*^6"},
        {"61", "8.959757043861937`*^6"},
        {"62", "9.197005738352144`*^6"},
        {"63", "9.43566899000817`*^6"},
        {"64", "9.675730003469909`*^6"},
        {"65", "9.91717242723608`*^6"},
        {"66", "1.015998033547386`*^7"},
        {"67", "1.040413821083101`*^7"},
        {"68", "1.0649630928186009`*^7"},
        {"69", "1.0896443739268787`*^7"},
        {"70", "1.1144562258094981`*^7"},
        {"71", "1.1393972447159296`*^7"},
        {"72", "1.1644660604339877`*^7"},
        {"73", "1.1896613350464804`*^7"},
        {"74", "1.2149817617502645`*^7"},
        {"75", "1.2404260637333775`*^7"},
        {"76", "1.2659929931070276`*^7"},
        {"77", "1.2916813298888283`*^7"},
        {"78", "1.317489881034369`*^7"},
        {"79", "1.343417479513976`*^7"},
        {"80", "1.369462983432511`*^7"},
        {"81", "1.3956252751889851`*^7"},
        {"82", "1.4219032606745917`*^7"},
        {"83", "1.4482958685059963`*^7"},
        {"84", "1.47480204929283`*^7"},
        {"85", "1.5014207749368869`*^7"},
        {"86", "1.5281510379614286`*^7"},
        {"87", "1.554991850869256`*^7"},
        {"88", "1.5819422455276301`*^7"},
        {"89", "1.6090012725786746`*^7"},
        {"90", "1.6361680008743001`*^7"},
        {"91", "1.6634415169339677`*^7"},
        {"92", "1.690820924424176`*^7"},
        {"93", "1.718305343658931`*^7"},
        {"94", "1.7458939111195724`*^7"},
        {"95", "1.7735857789936267`*^7"},
        {"96", "1.8013801147312984`*^7"},
        {"97", "1.8292761006187715`*^7"},
        {"98", "1.8572729333679255`*^7"},
        {"99", "1.8853698237211473`*^7"},
        {"100", "1.9135659960708987`*^7"}

Sorry about that formatting, but I don't have the time to reformat all those figures. This is, by the way, character wealth per LEVEL, not CR.

*^7=10^7, so that 1.91*^7=1.91*10^7

Remember: A thing like this is a MUST if one is to use the modified CR-system, or else, the system will crumble fatally. Also: a similar thing needs to be done to NPC equipment and such.

By the way, the formula was discovered from the basic 2^((-1+SQRT(1+8*t)/2), which is the basic arithmetic sum-doubling formula.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Re: Red Dragon!

(remember party average is total levels divided by 4).

I'm dubious about this. Shouldn't average level be:
AL = Average Level
1) AL = Total Party level divided by number of characters
2) if 5-6 characters, AL+1; 7-8 +2, 9-12 +3, etc.

Just as with calculating Encounter Levels.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Red Dragon!

Hello all!

Apologies for my tardiness; a friends wedding yesterday and the Ryder Cup (Yay Europe! ) have impeded my activities.

By the way I'll get to your post in a moment Ea mate!

Hi Demiurgeastaroth!

I'm dubious about this. Shouldn't average level be:
AL = Average Level
1) AL = Total Party level divided by number of characters
2) if 5-6 characters, AL+1; 7-8 +2, 9-12 +3, etc.

Just as with calculating Encounter Levels.

I was determining a 50/50 chance CR.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: On character wealth by level

Greetings!

Hi Eä mate!

I'm just popping in now and then to give some advice on how to do things, because character wealth per level does not work.

I must admit I haven't settled on this yet so I appreciate the help.

Character wealth per level is broken, as per the official rules that exist now. The system follows a semi-exponential growth that is not applicaple at higher levels. Also, the character wealth is not accustomed at all to UK's modified CR-rules, at which the character wealth increase per level should decrease, not increase. Therefore, both 5*y^4 is broken, as is my a+b*c^SQRT(d+e*y) (which follows the official increase exactly for y>=21).

Okay, I was with you all the way up to the intervention of mathematical formula.

Cocnclusion: A new formula needs to be devised: One which follows the the formula for challenge ratings: i.e 10*ln(x/5)/ln(2), or else neither ECL nor CRs will work appropriatelly.

Why not just use ECL? I don't like the idea of using modified CR (if I'm understanding you correctly).

An easy way to do this is to calculate CR first, and then use the calculated result in the character wealth per level formula. Ie.: A level 40 character gets as much wealth as a level 30 character in the official rules. This way, the scale is not compromised.

Can't we just assign wealth by ECL?

As for UK's system (5*y^5): It works good for the first 50 CRs, but after that, the wealth degenerates, as per using CR as basis. If you're planning to use characters above CR 50, that system will not work (and for doing that, you will most probably need a calculator anyhow), so here is a system that works for doing character wealth by CR above CR 20 generally:
Insert CR into:
((1.56*10^-17)*(68^(0.867+SQRT(92.7+0.483*x)))-1340)*1000, where x=CR=10*ln(LVL/5)/ln(2)

You don't think thats a tad too complicated do you mate?

Character wealth per level from this gives the following table:

        {"21", "912880.650043348`"},
        {"22", "1.070035925155234`*^6"},
        {"23", "1.230181683091631`*^6"},
        {"24", "1.3932263693725562`*^6"},
        {"25", "1.5590847077494117`*^6"},
        {"26", "1.7276770418196064`*^6"},
        {"27", "1.8989287680386156`*^6"},
        {"28", "2.0727698445474317`*^6"},
        {"29", "2.2491343633522196`*^6"},
        {"30", "2.42796017579729`*^6"},
        {"31", "2.609188563151244`*^6"},
        {"32", "2.792763945604702`*^6"},
        {"33", "2.97863362414932`*^6"},
        {"34", "3.166747550747995`*^6"},
        {"35", "3.357058122961791`*^6"},
        {"36", "3.5495199998127827`*^6"},
        {"37", "3.7440899361642725`*^6"},
        {"38", "3.9407266333099343`*^6"},
        {"39", "4.1393906038053245`*^6"},
        {"40", "4.340044048857896`*^6"},
        {"41", "4.54265074682587`*^6"},
        {"42", "4.747175951576703`*^6"},
        {"43", "4.953586299621858`*^6"},
        {"44", "5.161849725084643`*^6"},
        {"45", "5.371935381680943`*^6"},
        {"46", "5.583813570991471`*^6"},
        {"47", "5.797455676395417`*^6"},
        {"48", "6.012834102107623`*^6"},
        {"49", "6.229922216829072`*^6"},
        {"50", "6.448694301575602`*^6"},
        {"51", "6.669125501297899`*^6"},
        {"52", "6.891191779949859`*^6"},
        {"53", "7.11486987869832`*^6"},
        {"54", "7.340137277000149`*^6"},
        {"55", "7.566972156301108`*^6"},
        {"56", "7.795353366136711`*^6"},
        {"57", "8.025260392434418`*^6"},
        {"58", "8.256673327841636`*^6"},
        {"59", "8.489572843915747`*^6"},
        {"60", "8.72394016502946`*^6"},
        {"61", "8.959757043861937`*^6"},
        {"62", "9.197005738352144`*^6"},
        {"63", "9.43566899000817`*^6"},
        {"64", "9.675730003469909`*^6"},
        {"65", "9.91717242723608`*^6"},
        {"66", "1.015998033547386`*^7"},
        {"67", "1.040413821083101`*^7"},
        {"68", "1.0649630928186009`*^7"},
        {"69", "1.0896443739268787`*^7"},
        {"70", "1.1144562258094981`*^7"},
        {"71", "1.1393972447159296`*^7"},
        {"72", "1.1644660604339877`*^7"},
        {"73", "1.1896613350464804`*^7"},
        {"74", "1.2149817617502645`*^7"},
        {"75", "1.2404260637333775`*^7"},
        {"76", "1.2659929931070276`*^7"},
        {"77", "1.2916813298888283`*^7"},
        {"78", "1.317489881034369`*^7"},
        {"79", "1.343417479513976`*^7"},
        {"80", "1.369462983432511`*^7"},
        {"81", "1.3956252751889851`*^7"},
        {"82", "1.4219032606745917`*^7"},
        {"83", "1.4482958685059963`*^7"},
        {"84", "1.47480204929283`*^7"},
        {"85", "1.5014207749368869`*^7"},
        {"86", "1.5281510379614286`*^7"},
        {"87", "1.554991850869256`*^7"},
        {"88", "1.5819422455276301`*^7"},
        {"89", "1.6090012725786746`*^7"},
        {"90", "1.6361680008743001`*^7"},
        {"91", "1.6634415169339677`*^7"},
        {"92", "1.690820924424176`*^7"},
        {"93", "1.718305343658931`*^7"},
        {"94", "1.7458939111195724`*^7"},
        {"95", "1.7735857789936267`*^7"},
        {"96", "1.8013801147312984`*^7"},
        {"97", "1.8292761006187715`*^7"},
        {"98", "1.8572729333679255`*^7"},
        {"99", "1.8853698237211473`*^7"},
        {"100", "1.9135659960708987`*^7"}

I like the table. The formula is a bit disconcerting.

Sorry about that formatting, but I don't have the time to reformat all those figures. This is, by the way, character wealth per LEVEL, not CR.

*^7=10^7, so that 1.91*^7=1.91*10^7

Remember: A thing like this is a MUST if one is to use the modified CR-system, or else, the system will crumble fatally. Also: a similar thing needs to be done to NPC equipment and such.

By the way, the formula was discovered from the basic 2^((-1+SQRT(1+8*t)/2), which is the basic arithmetic sum-doubling formula.

Maybe its just me mate but it all seems unnecessarily complicated.

 

[-Eä-]

Greetings again!

Hopefully I will be able to participate more in a week or so. I have discovered that being in the army is something I cannot do, so I will probably come home in a week or so (and hopefully continue some of my formerly started projects).

I agree, UK. It's too complicated (as opposed to complex (-; ). The system I proposed is accurate, but not practical at all, so I suggest that you either use a table, for example the one I provided with some rounded figures (like 21: 910 000, 25: 1 600 000, and so on) or that a new and simpler formula is discovered. Neither your system (5*x^4) nor mine nor the table in the ELH works when applying your modified CR-rules.

I shall try and see what I can do. Perhaps a simple root formula will suffice in most cases... I'll post my results here if I have success in creating a simple formula for character wealth by level.

What should be noted, however, is that using your system in combination with the modified CR-rules will yield results good enough for the first 160 levels! What you do then is first to calculate CR, and use (5*CR^4). This is quite straight forward, and as it is now, the simplest way of doing it. ECLs over 160 is the main problem, then.

 

[Anubis]

Hi all!

for some inexplicable reason I haven't been able to access the boards for the past 24 hours.

However, that gave me the chance to review the ECL/CR system once and for all.

Testing shows the new system to be pretty much perfect. Though I have made a few changes (notably a few based on Anubis findings; thanks for that mate*)

*Although theres a lot we still disagree on.

We'll see how your matches up to mine, once we're both done.

Incidently I now rate Divine Rank 0 at +18 ECL (includes the full ability score spectrum). Divine Rank 1 is +28 ECL and each subsequent Divine Rank is +3 ECL. There are some issues with regards gained abilities at Lesser God or Greater God status but they are either negligable or not included in my rules (such as the perfect dice score for Greater Gods which I don't use...though you can gain such an ability).

I'm sorry, but I am pretty certain that you are overrating their power now. A Level 1 Quasi-deity is not a challenge for a part of Level 19 PCs in any way, shape or form. In fact, I'm PRETTY certain that with four PCs at Level 19, I could kill a Quasi-deity in a single hit without difficulty!

As for higher levels, which would make more sense, I think that you are just trying to avoid agreeing with me on any divinity issue.

My final number is ECL +16 for Quasi-deity, ECL +24 for Demigod, and ECL +4 for each divine rank after that.

You see, where you go wrong is with giving an ECL modifier for the inherent bonuses to ability scores. There is no reason to give an ECL modifier for that, mainly because MOST characters who reach divinity through play, or who create high-level characters who reach divinity, will have already gotten ALL of these bonuses. Don't believe me? Check it out . . . A Level 30 character has over 4,000,000 in wealth, and the book that gives a +5 inherent bonus to an ability score costs only 137,500. Can you find any reason why a character with 4,000,000 in wealth WOULDN'T already have gotten six things all worth 137,500?

Do you see my point now? Because those inherent bonuses are such a variable, there is no way to accurately reflect that in the ECL. Thus, ECL should be +16, not +18.

As for the +4 per divine rank, this I can also explain to show that it is more fitting than +3. First, I tried to calculate all divine ranks based on what powers they get at what level based on the ECL table. SR and damage reduction go up every level, but only have an effect on ECL every five divine ranks. In addition, deities gain more powers every five divine ranks after 1 (6, 11, 16). On top of that, they get +10 to ability scores every ten divine ranks. When I calculated EVERYTHING into it, I got roughly an average of 4.5-5.5 per divine rank. If you throw out the extra SDA per status, however, and the automatic 20 for Greater Deities, the table became too sporadic, and some things weren't worth mentioning as they have little to no effect. Givine that, I decided that the MINIMUM you should give per divine rank is +2, +1 for the SDA and +1 for the divine rank (as if he had gained a level). To show the average increase in ability scores, SR, damage reduction, and other abilities over the course of divine ranks, the average is closer to +4 than +3, or roughly double the SDA/divine rank number. Thus, it works very well! In such a sporadic system of power gains, however, as presented in Deities & Demigods, and with such miscellaneous abilities that aren't necessarily reflected in combat well, it is quite difficult to rate some things. I would stick with +4 per level if anything for simplicity's sake. That gives a deity of any divine rank an ECL +20+(4 * divine rank), which makes things much simpler and keeps things on a base 20 (per five divine ranks, a good round number).

I hope I have explained this well enough. Obviously there are too many variables to come up with an exact system, as powers become more varies at higher levels, but still, it works out pretty well nonetheless. See my point?

Greetings!

I'm just popping in now and then to give some advice on how to do things, because character wealth per level does not work.


Character wealth per level is broken, as per the official rules that exist now. The system follows a semi-exponential growth that is not applicaple at higher levels. Also, the character wealth is not accustomed at all to UK's modified CR-rules, at which the character wealth increase per level should decrease, not increase. Therefore, both 5*y^4 is broken, as is my a+b*c^SQRT(d+e*y) (which follows the official increase exactly for y>=21).

Cocnclusion: A new formula needs to be devised: One which follows the the formula for challenge ratings: i.e 10*ln(x/5)/ln(2), or else neither ECL nor CRs will work appropriatelly.

An easy way to do this is to calculate CR first, and then use the calculated result in the character wealth per level formula. Ie.: A level 40 character gets as much wealth as a level 30 character in the official rules. This way, the scale is not compromised.

As for UK's system (5*y^5): It works good for the first 50 CRs, but after that, the wealth degenerates, as per using CR as basis. If you're planning to use characters above CR 50, that system will not work (and for doing that, you will most probably need a calculator anyhow), so here is a system that works for doing character wealth by CR above CR 20 generally:
Insert CR into:
((1.56*10^-17)*(68^(0.867+SQRT(92.7+0.483*x)))-1340)*1000, where x=CR=10*ln(LVL/5)/ln(2)

Character wealth per level from this gives the following table:

        {"21", "912880.650043348`"},
        {"22", "1.070035925155234`*^6"},
        {"23", "1.230181683091631`*^6"},
        {"24", "1.3932263693725562`*^6"},
        {"25", "1.5590847077494117`*^6"},
        {"26", "1.7276770418196064`*^6"},
        {"27", "1.8989287680386156`*^6"},
        {"28", "2.0727698445474317`*^6"},
        {"29", "2.2491343633522196`*^6"},
        {"30", "2.42796017579729`*^6"},
        {"31", "2.609188563151244`*^6"},
        {"32", "2.792763945604702`*^6"},
        {"33", "2.97863362414932`*^6"},
        {"34", "3.166747550747995`*^6"},
        {"35", "3.357058122961791`*^6"},
        {"36", "3.5495199998127827`*^6"},
        {"37", "3.7440899361642725`*^6"},
        {"38", "3.9407266333099343`*^6"},
        {"39", "4.1393906038053245`*^6"},
        {"40", "4.340044048857896`*^6"},
        {"41", "4.54265074682587`*^6"},
        {"42", "4.747175951576703`*^6"},
        {"43", "4.953586299621858`*^6"},
        {"44", "5.161849725084643`*^6"},
        {"45", "5.371935381680943`*^6"},
        {"46", "5.583813570991471`*^6"},
        {"47", "5.797455676395417`*^6"},
        {"48", "6.012834102107623`*^6"},
        {"49", "6.229922216829072`*^6"},
        {"50", "6.448694301575602`*^6"},
        {"51", "6.669125501297899`*^6"},
        {"52", "6.891191779949859`*^6"},
        {"53", "7.11486987869832`*^6"},
        {"54", "7.340137277000149`*^6"},
        {"55", "7.566972156301108`*^6"},
        {"56", "7.795353366136711`*^6"},
        {"57", "8.025260392434418`*^6"},
        {"58", "8.256673327841636`*^6"},
        {"59", "8.489572843915747`*^6"},
        {"60", "8.72394016502946`*^6"},
        {"61", "8.959757043861937`*^6"},
        {"62", "9.197005738352144`*^6"},
        {"63", "9.43566899000817`*^6"},
        {"64", "9.675730003469909`*^6"},
        {"65", "9.91717242723608`*^6"},
        {"66", "1.015998033547386`*^7"},
        {"67", "1.040413821083101`*^7"},
        {"68", "1.0649630928186009`*^7"},
        {"69", "1.0896443739268787`*^7"},
        {"70", "1.1144562258094981`*^7"},
        {"71", "1.1393972447159296`*^7"},
        {"72", "1.1644660604339877`*^7"},
        {"73", "1.1896613350464804`*^7"},
        {"74", "1.2149817617502645`*^7"},
        {"75", "1.2404260637333775`*^7"},
        {"76", "1.2659929931070276`*^7"},
        {"77", "1.2916813298888283`*^7"},
        {"78", "1.317489881034369`*^7"},
        {"79", "1.343417479513976`*^7"},
        {"80", "1.369462983432511`*^7"},
        {"81", "1.3956252751889851`*^7"},
        {"82", "1.4219032606745917`*^7"},
        {"83", "1.4482958685059963`*^7"},
        {"84", "1.47480204929283`*^7"},
        {"85", "1.5014207749368869`*^7"},
        {"86", "1.5281510379614286`*^7"},
        {"87", "1.554991850869256`*^7"},
        {"88", "1.5819422455276301`*^7"},
        {"89", "1.6090012725786746`*^7"},
        {"90", "1.6361680008743001`*^7"},
        {"91", "1.6634415169339677`*^7"},
        {"92", "1.690820924424176`*^7"},
        {"93", "1.718305343658931`*^7"},
        {"94", "1.7458939111195724`*^7"},
        {"95", "1.7735857789936267`*^7"},
        {"96", "1.8013801147312984`*^7"},
        {"97", "1.8292761006187715`*^7"},
        {"98", "1.8572729333679255`*^7"},
        {"99", "1.8853698237211473`*^7"},
        {"100", "1.9135659960708987`*^7"}

Sorry about that formatting, but I don't have the time to reformat all those figures. This is, by the way, character wealth per LEVEL, not CR.

*^7=10^7, so that 1.91*^7=1.91*10^7

Remember: A thing like this is a MUST if one is to use the modified CR-system, or else, the system will crumble fatally. Also: a similar thing needs to be done to NPC equipment and such.

By the way, the formula was discovered from the basic 2^((-1+SQRT(1+8*t)/2), which is the basic arithmetic sum-doubling formula.

Dude, too complex! I'm quite gifted in math and I don't even understand that! I would like to find the formula WotC used, to be honest.

 

[-Eä-]

Character Wealth by Level (again)

Greetings!


No it isn't complex (you know, as in having one real and one imaginary part (-; ), but I agree, it's too complicated.


WotC didn't use any formula for assigning this. I have asked them many times, but at best they give some vague directions. Those are not appropriate. But even as it is now, you will not want to use the presented table (the one in the ELH) using the modified CR system. That's not possible, for if you are to do that, the whole system breaks apart. As per today, I think the simplest thing is to do what I suggested in my other post: Calculate CR, and then use 5*CR^4. (Which works for the first 50 CRs (160 ECLs)).

I will try to devise a simpler and more accurate system. I may even go as far as consulting the university's expert on real analysis to get a better take.



On ECLs for divinity: In my opinion, Anubis is a bit closer than UK in determining appropriate ECLs for deities. I know the ECLs may vary by campaign, but in my campaign (which is very high magic), ECL +16 works better.

You should note, however, that my campaign is higher magic than D&D default, so it's perhaps not a good reference point in evaluating the average.


By the way: Won't ODAs and other snazzy things have effect on ECL, UK?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greetings again!

Hello again mate!

Hopefully I will be able to participate more in a week or so.

I have discovered that being in the army is something I cannot do,

Different horses for different courses - thats all mate!

Surely the Norwegian Army has a logistics section, you could have run that.

so I will probably come home in a week or so (and hopefully continue some of my formerly started projects).

Sorry it didn't work out for you mate!

I agree, UK. It's too complicated (as opposed to complex (-; ).

The system I proposed is accurate, but not practical at all, so I suggest that you either use a table, for example the one I provided with some rounded figures (like 21: 910 000, 25: 1 600 000, and so on) or that a new and simpler formula is discovered. Neither your system (5*x^4) nor mine nor the table in the ELH works when applying your modified CR-rules.

I shall try and see what I can do. Perhaps a simple root formula will suffice in most cases... I'll post my results here if I have success in creating a simple formula for character wealth by level.

What should be noted, however, is that using your system in combination with the modified CR-rules will yield results good enough for the first 160 levels! What you do then is first to calculate CR, and use (5*CR^4). This is quite straight forward, and as it is now, the simplest way of doing it. ECLs over 160 is the main problem, then.

Detailing a list without a formula isn't an option I am considering.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

We'll see how your matches up to mine, once we're both done.

Sure!

I'm sorry, but I am pretty certain that you are overrating their power now.

A Level 1 Quasi-deity is not a challenge for a part of Level 19 PCs in any way, shape or form. In fact, I'm PRETTY certain that with four PCs at Level 19, I could kill a Quasi-deity in a single hit without difficulty!

Were not getting into this again are we?

By the way don't you mean 15th-level party?

As for higher levels, which would make more sense, I think that you are just trying to avoid agreeing with me on any divinity issue.

But thats ridiculous - I actually changed my position on a number of points because of your arguments.

My final number is ECL +16 for Quasi-deity, ECL +24 for Demigod, and ECL +4 for each divine rank after that.

Okay.

You see, where you go wrong is with giving an ECL modifier for the inherent bonuses to ability scores. There is no reason to give an ECL modifier for that, mainly because MOST characters who reach divinity through play, or who create high-level characters who reach divinity, will have already gotten ALL of these bonuses. Don't believe me? Check it out . . . A Level 30 character has over 4,000,000 in wealth, and the book that gives a +5 inherent bonus to an ability score costs only 137,500.

Technically such a character should already have the +3 ECL applied.

Can you find any reason why a character with 4,000,000 in wealth WOULDN'T already have gotten six things all worth 137,500?

Yes. Availability.

Do you see my point now? Because those inherent bonuses are such a variable, there is no way to accurately reflect that in the ECL. Thus, ECL should be +16, not +18.

I disagree. They should be included regardless of where they are derived.

As for the +4 per divine rank, this I can also explain to show that it is more fitting than +3. First, I tried to calculate all divine ranks based on what powers they get at what level based on the ECL table. SR and damage reduction go up every level, but only have an effect on ECL every five divine ranks. In addition, deities gain more powers every five divine ranks after 1 (6, 11, 16). On top of that, they get +10 to ability scores every ten divine ranks. When I calculated EVERYTHING into it, I got roughly an average of 4.5-5.5 per divine rank. If you throw out the extra SDA per status, however, and the automatic 20 for Greater Deities, the table became too sporadic, and some things weren't worth mentioning as they have little to no effect. Givine that, I decided that the MINIMUM you should give per divine rank is +2, +1 for the SDA and +1 for the divine rank (as if he had gained a level). To show the average increase in ability scores, SR, damage reduction, and other abilities over the course of divine ranks, the average is closer to +4 than +3, or roughly double the SDA/divine rank number. Thus, it works very well! In such a sporadic system of power gains, however, as presented in Deities & Demigods, and with such miscellaneous abilities that aren't necessarily reflected in combat well, it is quite difficult to rate some things. I would stick with +4 per level if anything for simplicity's sake. That gives a deity of any divine rank an ECL +20+(4 * divine rank), which makes things much simpler and keeps things on a base 20 (per five divine ranks, a good round number).

I agree there are some powers that are ambiguous to rate effectively but I am pretty much certain I have it right this time.

I hope I have explained this well enough. Obviously there are too many variables to come up with an exact system, as powers become more varies at higher levels, but still, it works out pretty well nonetheless. See my point?

I think you are wrong about the ability scores - I agree the other issue is debateable.