Upper level limit solo encounter for this party...?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As a counter to the "more monsters" remark, last session in Dark Sun, I ran a very long session with 6 PCs. Already a little too many, probably, but I used a lot of monsters, including a clutch of 6 slightly lower-level monsters (that, being brutes, actually died last!).

It took too long, unlike battles I usually run. It would have taken even longer, except the PCs' dice were smoking hot; not one single-target attack against the soldiers' AC scores failed. On the plus side, most of the bad guys (except the brutes, who had a "suicide ability") were able to escape rather than get butchered.

In the OP, the PCs are 12th-level, so I wouldn't suggest anything more than a "double level 14 solo", possibly with an extra level or 2 if it's artillery, or maybe even a brute.

When first running Keep on the Shadowfell, I literally TPK'd the PCs using vampire spawn. (PCs were 3rd-level, vampire spawn were 5th-level minions, and for some reason had +2 AC so were basically 5th-level minion soldiers.) The PCs were unlucky and didn't manage to kill any. (My recollection is a TPK, but it's possible a PC ran away to live another day. This was years ago.) I'm not averse to PC deaths, but generally not in a "random encounter".

Same with the final boss (already 4 levels over PCs, but with +2 elite bonus they later took away); while the PCs won this one, it was only because I arbitrarily cut its hit points in half.

 

[Quickleaf]

For 12th level PCs I wouldn't use an encounter above 17th level, and would expect that to be fairly hard. You've got 7 rather than 5 PCs, though, so let's make that 18th.

I expect the interaction of the 'paragon tier force multiplier' and 'party size force multiplier' actually would make it even higher a bit, but 18th level seems a good starting target.

As a solo, though, that that will suck defences-wise, so why not build as two 14th-level solos? That also gives you stages, which I tend to find work better for those high-level fights. You can even set up some mechanism where in the stage transition the players can choose a modest recovery option (in one encounter I ran, in the transition round I let them spend a standard action to recover an encounter power or spend two surges).

The main reasons are that (a) a 14th level solo would be too easy to hit (relative to my 'PCs should hit around 13+' boss monster guideline), and (b) I'm giving Infyrana wizard spells and several of the ones I want to give her are higher level...which I suppose I could just fudge.

But really if she has two sets of actions, a large suite of powers (including reactions), and more HP than normal (say 1,000)...isn't that almost the same as having two solos?

Even if you're not using hangers-on you will definitely want terrain, including terrain powers that both sides can use but that give the dragon an advantage (eg because of her fire resistance or flight).

Normally I do this stuff improvising based on what the players decide. Do you have another approach?

Seconded!
Single solos, even if you add a couple of minions already barely work well against a party of five, against seven it's pretty hopeless. Two solos however, work like a charm, even against a party of eight.
I haven't used Angry DM's guidelines in a game yet, though. Maybe single solos work better using them.

IME the 3-stage adult red dragon I ran using AngryDm's guidelines worked like a charm, and made for a very tense encounter. I'm fine "using two solos to model Infyrana", but I definitely only want one BBEG for this fight.

Right, I would look at two, say level 16, solos as the base reference. In addition to boosting HP, and instead of increasing damage too much, I would look at attacks that can hit multiple targets, ie if the claw hits one normally, maybe it can sweep across two.

Yes, good advice, thanks.

Thirded! I've come to think that more monsters are better than higher-level monsters, because players can still use their powers effectively. I would also give the monster the ability to "spawn" some minions, just to give the players some extra stuff to swing at. That should soak a trivial amount of attacks, but cause some extra aggravation to the players.

She can call on some kobold minions or wyrmlings during the fight. I want to reiterate that for story reasons it's important that this be a one BBEG fight. Most of the fights so far have been against dozens of kobolds and their monsters, so the PCs are itching for a boss fight, and there is huge build-up/foreshadowing pointing to this showdown against Infyrana.

In the OP, the PCs are 12th-level, so I wouldn't suggest anything more than a "double level 14 solo", possibly with an extra level or 2 if it's artillery, or maybe even a brute.

Do you consider an AngryDM style boss that get 2 turns to qualify as a "double solo"?

I think that my experience must be different than other DMs, because I was expecting the previous dragon fight (five 11th level PCs vs. a three-stage 15th level boss) to play deadlier than it actually did. I quickly realized how powerful paragon PCs are! They could have taken on an L+5 boss! I'm using that previous fight as my litmus test for Infyrana...my thinking is that between adding two PCs and getting better acquainted with each others' PCs they could take on an L+7 or +8 boss (provided defenses were down-adjusted slightly) if they were fresh.

 

[Manbearcat]

You've gotten some good advice on this thread on what to do. However, when it comes to climactic showdowns that end arcs/tiers, I personally like to playtest the encounter beforehand to make sure that I have all of the moving parts where I want them for maximum dynamism/awesome. That way, if there are extreme weaknesses inherent to the encounter (either the BBEG or the terrain/lair itself), you have actual "field-work" to parse to set things on the right path. Do you have access to all of the characters? I would have a friend (who isn't in the group) play one side and you guys can run through it and spitball answers to problems as they rear their head.

Just as an aside, I would consider moving the plane-shift focus to Infyrana's lair and put that to use in the encounter (letting PCs interact with it to maybe get plane-specific buffs or summon minions from other realms that have instinctive actions). Or perhaps they could do a quick Skill Challenge to activate it. Make it a 4:3 (Hard DCs) and a minor action, range Melee 1 to interact with it. Failure in the skill challenge causes a feedback effect:

Range CB10
Attack: lvl + 3 vs defense attuned to specific plane.
Effect: Vulnerable 10 damage attuned to a specific plane.

Success would mean that for 1 round while it is activated, Infyrana gains vulnerable 10 damage attuned to the specific plane (eg necrotic for shadow) for one round and then it resets. Perhaps she is the focus for the plane-shifting and when the artifact is activated it draws upon her life-force. That might be fun.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] It's a great idea, but I just don't have time to do a full-on "dry run". Still I'm keeping the party's general abilities in mind - they are an extremely effective group when working together (which seems to be about half the time ).

Gret idea about incorporating the planeshift focus for the Mountain! Thanks!

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION], on the defences stuff my intuitions are probably distorted by the fact that we're an Expertise-free game, whereas from your paladin's attack numbers I'm guessing that you're not.

On the terrain stuff, improvisation is good but I sometimes find it helpful to write some things up encounter-power style, both for advanced prep and as a mnemonic - eg if the dragon has a wing buffet or tail bash attack, working out in advance how you'll handle the rock formations on which the PCs will get impaled, the lava in which they'll be bathed etc.

 

[keterys]

A 14th solo could easily have 17th or 19th level or even 23rd PC powers. It has the XP equivalent (5000) of a 23rd level standard (5100). A double-solo is worth 10,000XP which is pretty close to a 27th standard (11000).

Personally, I think that 18th is probably low-balling your PC, especially if done as stages since they don't have to face the full xp budget at once. They could probably face closer to a 21st (albeit with real chance of TPK), as long as things are quite split up and it's more like facing multiple encounters without short rest.

So, 3 X L14 solo or 3 x L19 Elite kinda thing. Though personally I much prefer solos to _never_ be solo. Have friends, and lots of them. Fwiw, I think hitting on a 13 is an awful theory unless the party has a lot of on-demand hit boosts. I think hitting on an 8 is a much better theory.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION] I like the simple solution of using three separate level 14 solos to represent Infyrana, probably each having slightly reduced HP (from 548 to 500) and simply changing stage when her current stat block is reduced to 0 HP.

Here's a question: would giving the dragon the spellcasting abilities of a 19th level Mage be unfair? That is, 2 at-wills, 4 encounter spells, 3 daily spells, and 5 utility spells?

 

[keterys]

I don't think it'd be unfair - I'd suggest spreading their use over the three phases.

You might want to put some way for your PCs to get back, like, an encounter power each in there. For example, defeating the second phase might grant an action point, the ability to spend a healing surge, and regain an encounter power. Depends how close to the edge you want to run.

 

[Vhex]

Let me preface this answer with paraphrasing Kaywinnet Lee Frye: "throw whatever you want at them, that vampire cavalier is going to live, dammit."

If her defenses are around 32, that means that the party's paladin with +19 vs. AC will hit on a 13+ which feels about right.

I haven't seen the other character builds, but weapon users will typically have a higher hit chance than implement users even if they take all the same feats. So a paladin using a longsword (+3 weapon proficiency) is probably among the highest tier in attack stats. Which means implement users will be around 16 to hit for most of their abilities. Be careful in your encounter design not to relegate this to a "highest at-will only" style fight. This is usually offset by implement casters targeting different defenses, but you may want to look at what powers and attack bonuses all of the players have.

It's not a problem to have a main monster that only some characters can hit regularly, but it means you need to give the characters that are hitting on a 16 or higher other options:
1.) Some way to buff up their attacks.
a.) A magical zone that keeps moving around the room that grants a +3 bonus to spell attacks while standing in it.
b.) A fountain that requires a minor action to drink from, but makes your next attack a flat +19 to hit.
c.) A morale bonus that lets you roll two D20s on your next attack when you slay reinforcements.

2.) Something equally as important to do.
a.) A skill challenge that MUST be completed for the party to win.
b.) Hordes of reinforcements that must be taken out.
c.) Some way to help the rest of the party in a way that only their unique abilities can.

It's no fun to be the one who can't attack the big bad, so the second option requires more creativity than I have. The benefits of things like 1a are the party may not use it and if they do use it and it begins to trivialize the encounter, the "move" can be somewhere the party can't see it (or under the dragon!)

Option 2 is good as well, but I'm not sure it fits the flavor of the fight you're going for.

Another option that works really well in a three stage fight is having the defenses change on the monster between stages. Your party won't know when those stages are going to occur, so it's possible as a DM to adjust the defenses between "stages" without adjusting the hitpoint total. If the party is doing better than you expect, it's a four stage battle and the defenses increased (what would normally be mid-stage) as the dragon got enraged! If they're doing worse then it's a four stage battle and the defenses decreased as the dragon used all of its "buff magic" up.

Those are some ways to deal with it on the fly, but there's no better way to do it than to play out the battle as you see it happening. The best way to design a "tight" encounter is to look at the powers and bonuses your players have and build around that. Negate things like action denial on a solo, but don't make anyone's role or power useless (and if you do, make sure they have something else to do).

If the encounter kills them it should be because they didn't work together, made bad decisions, or had extremely bad luck with the dice opposite your extremely good luck. For that reason, I like to add in obstacles that play to the characters' (and sometimes the players') flaws. Things like the enemy artillery on the ground behind a wall of fire with threats flying in the air means that the melee characters have to find some way to deal with the fire guys because the ranged characters are dealing with the sky threat. Obviously that doesn't work in this case, but something like Kobold Press's disease style environments (that get bad when the players do bad and good when the players do well) are good ways to do this. Although I never like to provide a detriment without a benefit or at the very least a way to remove the detriment.

Lastly, at paragon tier and with 7 players, you should absolutely feel free to give that creature extra oomph and extra attack powers.

From a "preserve my hide" perspective, keep in mind that the characters will not have had an extended rest (and rightfully so). So a method of action recovery or resource recovery goes well the harder you make the fight. These can also be things that crop up mid battle as long as you can find a way to work them in without seeming like you're throwing the party a bone. One mechanic that I use and like is spending healing surges to regain powers or boost the character (and if you don't have healing surges, take damage equal to your surge value that cannot be reduced by any means). I don't know that I'd let the vampire do the surge part since they have a way of gaining surges. The idea is something that allows the players to take a consequence for a different kind of benefit.

 

[keterys]

I'd actually expect the vampire to be particularly screwed by the setup of super encounters - vampires can do normal encounters all day, regaining the surge spent at the end of each combat to heal to full. But in a serious challenge where they need to get healed, they can easily get reduced to 0 surges then have no real recourse other than to stay down.

To tie in what [MENTION=94831]Vhex[/MENTION] suggested, you could easily have an ablative magical barrier that starts her defenses higher, but can be brought down by (skill checks, specific types of actions, raw damage, or missed attacks). For example, if she has a +4 to +6 defense bonus that goes down by 1 every time she's missed (visualize as mirror images or similar), then you might obtain that "needs a 13" you were looking for without turning the entire combat into a grind.