D&D 5E Upping Challenges for 7 Players

[Retreater]

Last night we had a rather anti-climactic end for a big bad. Even though the fight would be memorable and humorous (trapping her under a folding boat and wailing on her), it wasn't much of a challenge.

Essentially the dragon lost Initiative, got pulled down by two summoned dire wolves, pinned to the ground, and was killed in less than two rounds. A monster that had a 70% chance of outright killing the entire party with a breath weapon, died before making a second attack and couldn't even move to reach a party member with an attack. It was a joke. The players (teenagers) were laughing around the table until they were snorting and falling out of their chairs.

The party is large but definitely not optimized (for example, the melee paladin has like a 12 Strength).

Here's the problem. I can't whittle down the group to fewer than 7 players. Doubling the number of monsters will slow down the game, not fit in the dungeon, and will also make boss fights too dangerous (in the case of the CR 10 dragon above, having 2 of them would have been too much).

What do I do? Would giving solo boss monsters two turns of Initiative take care of it?

 

[iserith]

Don't run solo boss monsters. Include additional monsters that won't appreciably slow down the game or environmental effects that hamper the ability of the PCs to attack the monster directly at least some of the time.

Also, consider alternate goals - perhaps killing the boss monster is actually bad in context without achieving some other goal first.

 

[dave2008]

Without much information about your PCs (particularly there level) it is hard to say. Also, are you looking for a general guideline or guidelines for solo monsters? A couple of general suggestions I have seen, but have not used myself, is to modify a monster as follows:

1. for each PC over 4 add 25% monster HP*
2. for each PC over 4 add 25% monster damage or 1 attack*
3. for each PC over 4 add +1 to all defenses

You might need to tune those dials to your particular group.

*Note: this can be by adding a monster(s) or increasing an individual monster

So your dragon would have 75% more HP, +3 to all defenses, and 3 additional attacks. This is assuming the CR 10 dragon was an appropriate challenge. I can tell that from the information provided

 

[payn]

Split the difference? Don't double the amount of monsters, but up the average CR of them all?

Sometimes coming up with creative encounter environments helps too. Perhaps, neither the big bad boss or the party can target each other in the first round, but will in a later round so the PCs have to prepare for the big attack. I guess in my experience, sometimes its not about the CR, but how the fight unfolds. Also, take with a big grain of salt I would never run for a group of 7+.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

More things need to happen on the enemy side, or the boss enemy needs more durability.

More HP, more damage resistance, lair actions, legendary/villain actions. Mix and match.

 

[Oofta]

I generally don't run true solos at mid-to-high levels, the action economy tends not to work out and it's worse with that many players. If I do, I set up the enemy with advantages to counter the numbers. So the dragon should have started out of reach, for example. For this specific example, the dragon may not have lair actions, but they could also have used fire to their advantage, with barrels of oil or other flammable items they can set aflame with their breath weapon. Set it up so that the dragon uses their breath weapon round 1 and then the fire spreads (potentially igniting barrels) unless the PCs do something to stop it.

Another thing I do is create minion-like creatures is give low level monsters a significant boost to attack and damage (i.e. +5 to attack and double damage or more, it just depends) but otherwise don't change their stats. They're annoying and provide extra targets but drop easily. In addition, having the minions appearing after combat starts and coming from multiple directions can help.

In the case of the downed dragon the extras could have used their actions to shove the wolves away (breaking any grapple) or just use the help action so they can escape.

But another thing to remember is that sometimes fights just don't go your way. It happens. There's no magic to encounter design, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

The players (teenagers) were laughing around the table until they were snorting and falling out of their chairs.

This tells me it was a very successful session. Embrace it!

Then, for a potentially more challenging BBEG encounter next time, add some combination of other monsters, legendary actions and/or resistances, lair effects, environmental hazards, as others have mentioned.

Spoiler: some things I did for a recent BBEG encounter in Barovia

In our last session, the party had just snatched the wine gem from Baba Lysaga's Creeping Hut and now faced a showdown with Baba Lysaga herself in the Ruins of Berez, which is very swampy. All water was considered difficult terrain.

Lair effects on initiative count 20 included 1) exploding mud that not only caused more difficult terrain but also required a save for any PC within 15' to avoid getting blinded for a round, 2) swarms of biting insects that did no damage but caused distracting pain that required a save to avoid disadvantage on the PC's next attack and required a concentration check for spells, and 3) 1d3 Putrid Haunts rising from a random pool of mucky water (from Kobold Press Tome of Beasts - these have an especially nasty Vomit Leeches attack which actually ended up killing two PCs!).

Baba wore a necklace with three odd glowing orange gems that represented her 3 uses of Legendary Resistance - when used, a gem would smolder and burn out.

Baba also had three legendary actions - nothing too crazy: 1) if in the flying skull, she could fly it 20' without provoking Opportunity attacks, 2) she could make a Wisdom(Perception) check, 3) she could cast Acid Splash.

Baba also could have used an action to call the remaining 4 scarecrows in the area to her aid.

All these extras made for a more dynamic showdown for sure.

 

[Clint_L]

Sounds like a fun session, so that's a success. That said - I know where you are coming from, because if every Big Bad turns into a joke, the game becomes a lot less exciting in the long run.

And I know where you are coming from because I run games for large groups of teens (normal group size is 8) all the time, and have been for years. Here is what has been working for me:

1. If it's a solo Big Bad, give it lair actions and/or legendary actions, one of which allows it to move. Always. Otherwise it just gets beat down.

2. Make sure the environment gives it room to move around (this also makes the encounter more interesting for players).

3. If doing multiple foes, you have to budget a lot of extra time. New players are woefully inefficient on their turns, and the more options they have, the longer it takes.

4. Don't get bogged down making rulings and arguing with players - keep things moving. For example, how do two dire wolves hold down an adult dragon? I would just rule that out right up front.

5. Don't let them meta-game during another player's turn. It completely slows the game down and reduces player agency. There are always a few players who want to tell everyone else what they should do. Don't let them - let every player make their own choices, even if they are bad ones!

As an aside, if the dragon had a "70% chance of killing the entire party" had it won initiative...that's not great encounter design, either. Imagine if that had happened - that would have sucked! Maybe you are putting too many eggs in one basket?

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Sound advice here. For #1, I would also add maxing out the boss' HP and giving it Legendary Resistances if it doesn't already have them, and increasing them to 5 if it does.

Sounds like a fun session, so that's a success. That said - I know where you are coming from, because if every Big Bad turns into a joke, the game becomes a lot less exciting in the long run.

And I know where you are coming from because I run games for large groups of teens (normal group size is 8) all the time, and have been for year. Here is what has been working for me:

1. If it's a solo Big Bad, give it lair actions and/or legendary actions, one of which allows it to move. Always. Otherwise it just gets beat down.

Making sure that there are "toyetic" elements in the environment is a great technique. In the aforementioned scenario, you could've put some ancient crumbling ruins in the dragon's lair. Monsters and PCs could take cover behind and/or shove the remnants of walls over onto each other. Crumbling towers that the dragon can perch on and limit the number of PCs that can close into melee. Heck, for a red dragon, some pools of lava would also be appropriate.

2. Make sure the environment gives it room to move around (this also makes the encounter more interesting for players).

With a larger group, this is especially important. I always say "I'm going to rule this way right now, but will do some research and come back with an official ruling next session."

4. Don't get bogged down making rulings and arguing with players - keep things moving. For example, how do two dire wolves hold down an adult dragon? I would just rule that out right up front.

For non-boss fights, I find increasing the number of foes works better than just increasing the HP of what's already there. Because, especially if the PCs don't have many AOEs, those numbers are eventually going to take a toll on them. And if the monster has rechargeable abilities and/or spells, that's going to add to their force more than just keeping the same number in the fight longer.

 

[aco175]

Beholders

 

[kenada]

Why was the dragon in melee range?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

A good option is to have your BBEG more ''segmented''. Divide your dragon into 3-4 different creatures, each with its own HP pool, speed, and action allotment. A dragon would have: Core (head), Wings, Legs and Tail.

Once the Core is destroyed the beast dies.

 

[billd91]

I've got a potentially large number of players in my Thursday night game too (up to 11 if everybody is available - I usually have 6-8 due to conflicts). The things I do:

1) I increase hit points - sometimes a lot, without generally increasing anything else like AC or damage it can inflict. I don't want to skew the impact of the creature in ways that can grossly raise their offensive CR - I just want it to last longer for a fight that gives more PCs more interesting things to do and accomplish. If they don't have proficient saves (and a lot of monsters in the Monster Manual don't), I define them so that their saves aren't quite as terrible.

2) For significant encounters, particularly with big bads, I use legendary actions. Even for relatively low CR stuff. This is about tweaking the action economy so that the BBEG doesn't get cacked before he even gets an action due to poor initiative rolling on my part. I don't know of any rule preventing a legendary action from being performed before the monster itself gets its first initiative action. And if there was one, I'd ignore it.

3) For things in its home territory, I would use lair actions (they go on initiative 20 so a poor initiative roll doesn't feel so bad).

4) I add minions - generally at a lower CR than the BBEG or solo - to try to separate the group's focus. Yes, this will increase the time it takes to play out an encounter, but that's a reasonably price to pay if I'm successful at keeping everyone busy with something to do.

 

[jasper]

This is the adventure thingy. Party Composition Party Strength 3-4 characters, APL less than Very weak
3-4 characters, APL equivalent Weak, 3-4 characters, APL greater than Average
5 characters, APL less than Weak, 5 characters, APL equivalent Average
5 characters, APL greater than Strong, 6-7 characters, APL less than Average
6-7 characters, APL equivalent Strong, 6-7 characters, APL greater than Very strong

What generally happens is module Add extra monsters and extra HP for strong. Or Upgrades to a different monster. What I do if I have a strong group is all monsters roll with advantage, which only sometimes help. And minor minions which this forum tells me was done in 4 E.
You have a 7 person table, any body got any good combat encounters thingy to post a link to help the OP.

 

[NotAYakk]

When looking at the length of combat, there are two sides. How long to run the DM's turns, and how long to run the PCs turns.

The PCs turn time can be worked out as the damage per second of Player time (per SECOND not per TURN) divided into the total HP of enemy monsters.

For the DM's side, you ideally want it to be tight and small. This is why monsters are (ideally) very easy to run.

One trick on the DM's side is to realize you are in control of the monster power budget. So you can and should play monsters sub-optimally in order to make the game go faster. Playing sub-optimal tactics on a monster with more power is just as dangerous as less optimal play with a weaker monster!

So arranging for ideal positions for aoes, focusing fire, etc might make your big monster more effective, you should save table time by making the monster more effective and less tactically tricky to play on your side.

Setting up tactical problems for your players, on the other hand, is great.

---

The next problem is having enough rounds for interesting stuff to happen, and the fight not being a long sequence of PCs working out damage mechanics with the situation not changing.

Legendary Actions on solos exist for this reason. The idea is that the monster changes the tactical situation multiple times per turn, which should help keep the players engaged and interested.

It also spreads out the monster's damage budget over (game) time, allowing response from players, and not "monster goes, one PC dead, your turn" if you focused it all at once. A monster that dropped a PC per round, but died on round 3, would be a balanced fight in a sense (PCs reliably win), but might not be what you are aiming for in a fight.

---

So we want fast to play monsters that pose tactical problems for PCs, not DMs. We also want a dynamic battlefield, one that doesn't get locked down and ends.

My suggestions:

1. Tweak the dragon so it isn't doing the AOE breath alpha strike. Instead, on each legendary action, roll 1d6 and see if it inhales. On a 6, it prepares to use its breath weapon.

2. Ensure your boss has mobility baked into its legendary actions. "The dragon moves its speed and makes a claw attack on up to two different creatures. The claw attacks can be at any point during the move, and a creature attacked by the claw during this legendary action cannot make an opportunity attack on the dragon."

3. Have legendary resists. For extra fun, tie some mechanics into using them to keep the battle dynamic.

Legendary Resists: The dragon can choose to succeed at a save instead of failing one. When it does so, it must suffer one of the following consequences. It can only choose a consequence once before completing a short rest.

* Wing shield. The dragon's wings are damaged, and it cannot fly nor wing buffet until it completes a short rest. If it is flying, it falls and takes 1d6 damage for every 20' it falls, but so do all of the creatures it falls on.

* Bloody eye. The dragon's vision is impaired. It can no longer make perception checks as a legendary action, creatures more than 30' away from the dragon at the start of its turn have advantage on saves the dragon imposes.

* Wounded claw. The dragon can now only make 1 claw attack instead of two.

4. Bake in recovery to legendary actions. "When the takes a legendary action, if there is an effect that would end by the end of a creature's next turn, the effect ends after the legendary action. If it could end after a saving throw, the dragon may make a saving throw after the legendary action. A failure on that saving throw has no consequences."

"Legendary Action: Recover. The dragon may take this action even if unconscious or otherwise incapacitated. The dragon gains advantage on all saving throws until the end of the next opponent's turn."

5. Give it more HP, and more spread out damage. HP is a measure of how long the players spend dealing damage to it. As you want 3+ rounds, you need enough HP to soak 3 full rounds of players pounding on it.

6. Mix AOE damage with spread out damage and at least one "spike" damage. Make applying that spike damage optimal difficult, and be the player's goal.

 

[DavyGreenwind]

Last night we had a rather anti-climactic end for a big bad. Even though the fight would be memorable and humorous (trapping her under a folding boat and wailing on her), it wasn't much of a challenge.

Essentially the dragon lost Initiative, got pulled down by two summoned dire wolves, pinned to the ground, and was killed in less than two rounds. A monster that had a 70% chance of outright killing the entire party with a breath weapon, died before making a second attack and couldn't even move to reach a party member with an attack. It was a joke. The players (teenagers) were laughing around the table until they were snorting and falling out of their chairs.

The party is large but definitely not optimized (for example, the melee paladin has like a 12 Strength).

Here's the problem. I can't whittle down the group to fewer than 7 players. Doubling the number of monsters will slow down the game, not fit in the dungeon, and will also make boss fights too dangerous (in the case of the CR 10 dragon above, having 2 of them would have been too much).

What do I do? Would giving solo boss monsters two turns of Initiative take care of it?

Don't forget your legendary resistances (probably could have negated the dire wolves) and legendary actions. And remember, the given HP is just an average. You can always maximize the HP (max number on each dice) and even give the creature extra hp (because you're the DM)

 

[FallenRX]

Just give monsters legendary actions and resistance equal to the Party's size-1, and max their HP out.

That generally is enough to make an interesting fight

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Just give monsters legendary actions and resistance equal to the Party's size-1, and max their HP out.

That generally is enough to make an interesting fight

That is a quick easy fix, but i might revise it to 1 additional legendary action/resistance per PC over 3.

 

[tetrasodium]

Last night we had a rather anti-climactic end for a big bad. Even though the fight would be memorable and humorous (trapping her under a folding boat and wailing on her), it wasn't much of a challenge.

Essentially the dragon lost Initiative, got pulled down by two summoned dire wolves, pinned to the ground, and was killed in less than two rounds. A monster that had a 70% chance of outright killing the entire party with a breath weapon, died before making a second attack and couldn't even move to reach a party member with an attack. It was a joke. The players (teenagers) were laughing around the table until they were snorting and falling out of their chairs.

The party is large but definitely not optimized (for example, the melee paladin has like a 12 Strength).

Here's the problem. I can't whittle down the group to fewer than 7 players. Doubling the number of monsters will slow down the game, not fit in the dungeon, and will also make boss fights too dangerous (in the case of the CR 10 dragon above, having 2 of them would have been too much).

What do I do? Would giving solo boss monsters two turns of Initiative take care of it?

3.5 style damage reduction & resistance is your friend as it will apply a flat reduction to every attack & spell by every player. That will allow you to push players to getting more diverse than GWM gwf great sword & fireball /scorching ray/repelling agonizing eldritch blast or whatever thru grouped up around. Unfortunately 5e won't offer you much help if you have more than a couple players & you have much more than a couple

 

[Rabbitbait]

Without much information about your PCs (particularly there level) it is hard to say. Also, are you looking for a general guideline or guidelines for solo monsters? A couple of general suggestions I have seen, but have not used myself, is to modify a monster as follows:

1. for each PC over 4 add 25% monster HP*
2. for each PC over 4 add 25% monster damage or 1 attack*
3. for each PC over 4 add +1 to all defenses

You might need to tune those dials to your particular group.

*Note: this can be by adding a monster(s) or increasing an individual monster

So your dragon would have 75% more HP, +3 to all defenses, and 3 additional attacks. This is assuming the CR 10 dragon was an appropriate challenge. I can tell that from the information provided

Very handy. Thank you. I have 7 people in my game and some of those battles drag on much longer than they should as I have to add a bunch of flunkies for the big bad. This will help.