D&D 5E Upping Challenges for 7 Players

[DND_Reborn]

What do I do? Would giving solo boss monsters two turns of Initiative take care of it?

My #1 rule for BBEG/Solo Boss fights is give them maximum HP!

PCs in 5E can simply dish out too much damage en masse that battles end too quickly, especially if the party wins initiative (which, given the numbers, they likely will have one or more PCs going first...).

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

In addition to all the previous good advice, I like doing things like the old World of Warcraft raid for Magtheridon.

If you're not familiar, you have the boss and channelers who use these weird boxes. During the fight with Magtheridon, if you don't have raid members assigned to interacting with the cubes, his Blast Nova just nukes the crap out of everyone.

I think the problem sometimes is, trying to create a challenge sometimes feels like cheating. But some creatures are superintelligent (18+ Intelligence score) and have centuries of experience. They should be able to predictively counter 'regular' tactics. Or implement some stuff from 4e where once it hits Bloodied, it sets a fireball off (essentially) centered on itself and heals in a phoenix-esque way

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

Very handy. Thank you. I have 7 people in my game and some of those battles drag on much longer than they should as I have to add a bunch of flunkies for the big bad. This will help.

Also, you could add minions (from 4e, not from the movies). essentially, they count as less powerful adds, but they bulk up the forces. A gnoll minion, for example, would have all the stats of a gnoll but dies when it takes damage (either 1 or I've seen some other numbers). The point is to eat up extra attacks, be threats to casters, etc that a single monster can't be

 

[kigmatzomat]

I have spent years running games of 6-12 players for a multitude of game systems. First off, players doing rational, if unexpected things, is awesome. And it happens more often in large groups, ime. Their ideas shouldn't always work as expected, but if there's some sense to it, it should do something, even if only for a round or two.

Second, luck happens to players and GMs. Sometimes a round or two is all they need. And if it shatters their folding boat, well, that's a worthy use of treasure.

Third...well, loners are gonna be loners if you are wedded to a concept. But loner and "by themself" aren't the same. Maybe the dragon keeps piercers as pets. Or gelatinous cubes.

One thing I avoid is using the "mega monster" approach except for rare occasions. It is very hard to tune power levels with any predictability. And as you have found, a mob of twenty is a pain. So go with 3-ish monsters: a boss and two minions. The boss is a role, not a power level. Maybe its a kobold that has two trained bears. Or an tiefling warlock and a pair of ettins. Or it is a dragon with a pair of pet dire snakes. Maybe a wizard, her warrior henchman and a pack of hunting worgs.

The point is it changes the action economy to something a bit easier to manage, creates opportunities for the bbegs to assist each other, and is easier for you to tweak to provide a wider array of challenges for the different members of your party without having a "super" monster.

Plus, if one of them escapes, they have the chance to become a recurring problem, or at the very least, make it a multi-scene fight.

 

[Oofta]

As others have stated, the group had fun so I don't see a problem. However in my game ...

Yeah. Kind of. The dragon was hidden in the shadows, waiting for the party to come into its lair. They were walking through a tunnel, and the dragon was there, slinked up in position to hit them with its 30' line breath weapon. The druid got an EXCEPTIONAL perception roll, called everyone's attention to it.

The druid noticing the dragon would have been the start of initiative with everyone but the dragon and the druid surprised and unable to act on the first round. I think this is the biggest difference - this situation is a great example of a surprise attack.

In addition, there's no reason the dragon couldn't have been high enough that it couldn't be easily reached. It has a climb speed so it could easily have been clinging to the ceiling , which could have been super creepy as well.

The dragon then got something like a 4 for Initiative - and was effectively dead within a full turn. We're talking a creature with an 18 AC, 130 HP with resistance to almost all damage completely and utterly ruined by a party of 5th level characters.
It was a farce.


Well, I DID let their plan work.
But I don't want this to become the norm - because I've been there as a teenager, and this is when half the players leave the hobby. "All we did was stick stuff up the butts of dragons."

The folding boat thing ... just no. I'm sorry, I know there's a lot of people that do the "rule of cool" but I would have just said no to the folding boat suppository. Even if they did somehow manage it (I have no clue how they would do it physically) the expanding boat would have made the dragon temporarily uncomfortable, may have even done some minor damage. It would not have incapacitated it.

Some other questions - was the cavern well lit or dim light? The shadow dragon has "Living Shadow. While in dim light or darkness, the dragon has resistance to damage that isn’t force, psychic, or radiant."

I would have given the dragon a lot of room to move (actually I would have beefed up the dragon or given it allies and/or traps that it could trigger) while also using the environment to it's benefit. It can hide as a bonus action in dim light, it should have been in a large cavern starting out of range of direct attack and then moved around attacking from multiple directions every round, hiding after it's attack. This should be sneaky SOB that does everything it can to avoid direct confrontation.

It also sounds like you just had some massively bad rolls on top of it all. In addition to the bad initiative, the dire wolves are a +3 to grapple, the dragon is +6 so the odds of the dire wolves grappling it were slim. Given everything else though, I'm not sure this would have been that tough of a fight. A bit swingier than the calculations would indicate but by my calculations 7 5th level PCs vs a CR 10 monster is a medium challenge fight, which people are often going win easily. Which they did.

 

[Retreater]

Some other questions - was the cavern well lit or dim light? The shadow dragon has "Living Shadow. While in dim light or darkness, the dragon has resistance to damage that isn’t force, psychic, or radiant."

Yes. That damage resistance was taken into account.

I would have given the dragon a lot of room to move (actually I would have beefed up the dragon or given it allies and/or traps that it could trigger) while also using the environment to it's benefit. It can hide as a bonus action in dim light, it should have been in a large cavern starting out of range of direct attack and then moved around attacking from multiple directions every round, hiding after it's attack. This should be sneaky SOB that does everything it can to avoid direct confrontation.

The cavern was around 250 ft in diameter and 60 ft tall. The dragon had plenty of room to maneuver and could hide as a Bonus Action - except it didn't get a single turn to do any of that. It started close enough to spray them with its breath weapon. It had a 23 Stealth check. It was still spotted. It got terrible Initiative. It was slaughtered.

It also sounds like you just had some massively bad rolls on top of it all. In addition to the bad initiative, the dire wolves are a +3 to grapple, the dragon is +6 so the odds of the dire wolves grappling it were slim.

It wasn't grappled. It was tripped and knocked prone after failing a Strength saving throw at DC 13. It has a +4 its Strength save, so it fails on an 8 or lower (which is, I think a 40% chance of failing). It got hit twice, so had to make two saves - almost guaranteed to fail one of those.
Then was immediately pinned under the Folding Boat. The wolves did not pin it.
But even if it wasn't pinned, the wolves would've kept tripping it and pulling it to the ground on Opportunity Attacks. There was no way out of the encounter with the way it was designed.

 

[NotAYakk]

Pooled HP on troops can help.

A basic humanoid troop is:
10 HP per square
AC 15
+1 all saves
+5 to hit
5 damage
speed: 20': reduced to 10' if seperated.

Troops take up many squares. They stay together.

Attrition: Every 10 damage shrinks troops by 1 square.

Attack: Makes an attack on all adjacent creatures. +5+1 per square adjacent to target, damage is 1d8+1 per square adjacent to target. Deals 2d8+1 per square with advantage if it has someone surrounded.

Strength of Many: When an area effect occurs, Damage is multiplied by number of squares, then divided by 2. Any status effect at best disables squares targetted. If it fails a saving throw, can sacrifice any number of tarfetted squares for a +1 bonus to the saving throw per square sacrificed.

 

[Oofta]

Yes. That damage resistance was taken into account.


The cavern was around 250 ft in diameter and 60 ft tall. The dragon had plenty of room to maneuver and could hide as a Bonus Action - except it didn't get a single turn to do any of that. It started close enough to spray them with its breath weapon. It had a 23 Stealth check. It was still spotted. It got terrible Initiative. It was slaughtered.


It wasn't grappled. It was tripped and knocked prone after failing a Strength saving throw at DC 13. It has a +4 its Strength save, so it fails on an 8 or lower (which is, I think a 40% chance of failing). It got hit twice, so had to make two saves - almost guaranteed to fail one of those.
Then was immediately pinned under the Folding Boat. The wolves did not pin it.
But even if it wasn't pinned, the wolves would've kept tripping it and pulling it to the ground on Opportunity Attacks. There was no way out of the encounter with the way it was designed.

If there was a 60 ft ceiling, it should have started 60 ft up on the round everybody but the druid eas surprised. I addressed the other issues.

But it goes back to it only being a medium challenge encounter. On my phone at the moment so no challenge spreadsheet, but I would have at least thrown in a shadow mastiff or three that started off the fight while the dragon crept up from behind, did their breat weapon and then flew up into the shadows and hid.

With a group of 7 and a solo monster, you have to give the solo a lot of advantages. Maybe the wolves would've knocked it prone again on their turn, maybe not. Still not sure how a magically inflatable raft pinned the dragon.

Sometimes the dice swing combats, but this result doesn't really surprise me. On the other hand, 6 out of the 7 PCs should have been surprised.

You asked for feedback and advice so I'll just reiterate. I rarely use solos, if I do the challenge rating is going to be at least hard if not deadly. In addition, the odds are going to be stacked in their favor with max HP, traps and/or legendary actions and resistances.

Encounters don't always work as expected, and sometimes they go sideways. This one did, not sure what else to say. Live and learn?

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Legendary actions and resistances are designed to keep pace with the action economy of the players.
So it must be pretty direction, if the action economy doesnt add up, the fight will be made significantly easier.

it does add up, standard is 1 turn + 3 LA, or 4 actions. Adding one LA per person over 4 keeps the actions equivalent to the size of the party

 

[MichaelSomething]

A solo with an aura that lowers all PC stats by four?

 

[Quartz]

Something else to try is the Mythic Trait from Theros. Basically resurrection with full HP. Or, if you want to be nasty, when the PCs are congratulating themselves, have the other dragon show up. And because the PCs are busy celebrating it attacks fully prepared and with surprise.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

The players (teenagers) were laughing around the table until they were snorting and falling out of their chairs.

What kind of laughing are we talking here?

If they were having genuine fun, then that's awesome. The only problem may be that the DM wasn't having fun. Maybe you can accept that some encounters are easier than expected? It seems to be a common misconception on these forums that all encounters (especially BBEGs) must at all cost be super challenging. That's nonsense. Players love a walk in the park every now and then. But if that doesn't sit right with you, discuss with the players how to strike a balance between the real-time duration of encounters and the CR. As these guys level up, this issue will only get more pronounced. A single encounter may take >1 session.

If they were laughing at you, then firstly your problem isn't the CR of the encounter, but you have a lack of respect at the table and you may need to reassess what you're doing here. You cannot play D&D without mutual respect at the table.