D&D 5E Upping Challenges for 7 Players

Lidgar

Gongfarmer
I also run a large group. Standard practices for me include:
1. Max HP for bosses/solos
2. Up AC by +1 or +2
3. Add spellcasting if it makes sense. Even low level spells can really change an encounter.
4. Add environmental hazards or magical effects if it makes sense, especially difficult terrain.
 

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dave2008

Legend
We're talking a creature with an 18 AC, 130 HP with resistance to almost all damage completely and utterly ruined by a party of 5th level characters.
It was a farce.
I am not sure what you were planning for this fight, but, by the numbers (7) 5th-lvl PCs should be taking on monster closer to CR 20 than CR 10 if you want it to be a life threatening / challenging fight. I think you should have used two CR 10 dragons with that many PCs. Even for just 4PCs you need a CR 15+/- to be a real challenge (by the numbers - your group may be different).

So, that CR10 dragon was seriously underpowered for your group. If you had gone with the correct challenge for your group you would have probably been fine. As I mentioned before, you could probably simulate that as mentioned in my previous post.
 
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Quickleaf

Legend
Last night we had a rather anti-climactic end for a big bad. Even though the fight would be memorable and humorous (trapping her under a folding boat and wailing on her), it wasn't much of a challenge.

Essentially the dragon lost Initiative, got pulled down by two summoned dire wolves, pinned to the ground, and was killed in less than two rounds. A monster that had a 70% chance of outright killing the entire party with a breath weapon, died before making a second attack and couldn't even move to reach a party member with an attack. It was a joke. The players (teenagers) were laughing around the table until they were snorting and falling out of their chairs.

The party is large but definitely not optimized (for example, the melee paladin has like a 12 Strength).

Here's the problem. I can't whittle down the group to fewer than 7 players. Doubling the number of monsters will slow down the game, not fit in the dungeon, and will also make boss fights too dangerous (in the case of the CR 10 dragon above, having 2 of them would have been too much).

What do I do? Would giving solo boss monsters two turns of Initiative take care of it?
Well, I have a couple "answers" – an answer to the question you're not asking & a direct answer to the question you are.

First, the question not being asked is about how I would approach your specific scenario – shadow dragon knocked prone by summoned dire wolves, pinned beneath folding boat, and sniped to death resulting in anti-climax? One of the strengths of D&D is empowering weird player solutions like this – I believe we want to encourage that, rather than reign in it.

There are two details worth addressing: (1) knocking the dragon prone causing it to fall (as I understand your example) & (2) pinning it with the folding boat.

(1) While knocking flying creatures prone causing them to fall is entirely RAW, there's good reason to be cautious of this rule exactly for encouraging these kinds of "loophole" player tactics. If that's enjoyable and desirable for you as GM (sounds like it was enjoyable for your players, so that's not at question), then let it lie. If not, or if through speaking with your players you can imagine a better outcome, that's definitely what I consider a weakpoint in 5e's rules that's worth house ruling. You didn't ask, but there you go.

(2) Pinning a creature under a folding boat is, of course, completely outside of RAW and is up to GM discretion. In this case, I would have employed a "yes, but" ruling utilizing some or all of these caveats:
  • The folding boat bestows the Damage Threshold 15 of a sailing ship upon the shadow dragon covered by it, and any attack missing or failing to deal damage (after deducting Damage Threshold) against the shadow dragon instead damages the folding boat.
  • Establish a clock or Legendary Action allowing the shadow dragon to worm its way through the broken under-hull of the ship.
  • Give the players 1 round, then on the shadow dragon's next turn allow it to speak the first command word to return it to an itty-bitty box, and work how it knows the command word into the overarching narrative.
  • Give the players a few attacks, then cause the weight of the sailing ship to crush down on the shadow dragon, breaking into an underground chamber that drops the shadow dragon and the PCs down into it, with the creaking ship partially breached through what's now the ceiling above.
I wanted to answer what wasn't being asked first because I think those factors are critical to understanding why this pitched battle isn't the best representation of how solo monsters are imbalanced against large parties. Because hit points / damage weren't the primary factors, rather non-standard tactics and GM adjudication were the deciding factors.

That said, RAW solo monsters in 5e are imbalanced against large parties.

What do I do? Would giving solo boss monsters two turns of Initiative take care of it?
Now to your direct question: Possibly, but it is a quick hack solution that misses several key issues including stun-locking.

Generally speaking, there are 3 critical aspects of a boss fight (with a specific eye towards facing large parties):

1. The boss needs to be able to threaten about every PC in the party consistently, round after round. If it cannot use a multi-target effect like Breath Weapon then it needs to make that up in some other way to be threatening all 7 PCs round after round. How you modify the monster to do that is up to your GMing brilliance, but that's the principle.

Which is why I gave your "two initiative turns" proposal a lukewarm maybe, as if the same tactics were employed (stun-lock + snipe) against the RAW shadow dragon just with two turns, those 2 turns wouldn't do bupkiss for it.

2. The boss needs to be able to quickly shake off stun-locking effects of any kind. A good approach is to make it cost the boss something (e.g. a Legendary Action, one of its multiattacks, its recharge roll, hit points, its Lair Action that round, etc) in order to clear the stun-locking effect.

Bosses who can dramatically change the terrain or summon minions may be an exception to this guideline, but even then you probably want to give it some way to mitigate the worst of the stun-locking effects.

3. The boss needs to present a dynamic changing threat that evolves or tells a story over the course of the battle. This might be a phased boss like in Mythic Odyssey of Theros or Rime of the Frostmaiden. This might be a boss that at half hit points gets to use a special Reaction. This might be a boss whose environment changes - like my example of the shadow dragon getting crushed by sailing ship and opening up into an underground chasm below them and the party. In a sneaky alpha striking party situation, this might be a boss with some kind of illusion or double. In a situation with an artillery-focused party, maybe this is some kind of a force field that gets raised. The idea is that no matter what (barring exceptional player preparation), the fight is not a static you stand here, I stand here, and we wail on each other.
 

Don't let your pursuit of fictional adherence cloud your situation. To match the largest group of PCs, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. If any of those are lacking, it would best for your solo to retreat. You must break them before your engage them. Only then can you have a dramatic encounter, which won't turn into a farce.
 


dave2008

Legend
Well, I have a couple "answers" – an answer to the question you're not asking & a direct answer to the question you are.

First, the question not being asked is about how I would approach your specific scenario – shadow dragon knocked prone by summoned dire wolves, pinned beneath folding boat, and sniped to death resulting in anti-climax? One of the strengths of D&D is empowering weird player solutions like this – I believe we want to encourage that, rather than reign in it.

There are two details worth addressing: (1) knocking the dragon prone causing it to fall (as I understand your example) & (2) pinning it with the folding boat.

(1) While knocking flying creatures prone causing them to fall is entirely RAW, there's good reason to be cautious of this rule exactly for encouraging these kinds of "loophole" player tactics. If that's enjoyable and desirable for you as GM (sounds like it was enjoyable for your players, so that's not at question), then let it lie. If not, or if through speaking with your players you can imagine a better outcome, that's definitely what I consider a weakpoint in 5e's rules that's worth house ruling. You didn't ask, but there you go.

(2) Pinning a creature under a folding boat is, of course, completely outside of RAW and is up to GM discretion. In this case, I would have employed a "yes, but" ruling utilizing some or all of these caveats:
  • The folding boat bestows the Damage Threshold 15 of a sailing ship upon the shadow dragon covered by it, and any attack missing or failing to deal damage (after deducting Damage Threshold) against the shadow dragon instead damages the folding boat.
  • Establish a clock or Legendary Action allowing the shadow dragon to worm its way through the broken under-hull of the ship.
  • Give the players 1 round, then on the shadow dragon's next turn allow it to speak the first command word to return it to an itty-bitty box, and work how it knows the command word into the overarching narrative.
  • Give the players a few attacks, then cause the weight of the sailing ship to crush down on the shadow dragon, breaking into an underground chamber that drops the shadow dragon and the PCs down into it, with the creaking ship partially breached through what's now the ceiling above.
I wanted to answer what wasn't being asked first because I think those factors are critical to understanding why this pitched battle isn't the best representation of how solo monsters are imbalanced against large parties. Because hit points / damage weren't the primary factors, rather non-standard tactics and GM adjudication were the deciding factors.

That said, RAW solo monsters in 5e are imbalanced against large parties.


Now to your direct question: Possibly, but it is a quick hack solution that misses several key issues including stun-locking.

Generally speaking, there are 3 critical aspects of a boss fight (with a specific eye towards facing large parties):

1. The boss needs to be able to threaten about every PC in the party consistently, round after round. If it cannot use a multi-target effect like Breath Weapon then it needs to make that up in some other way to be threatening all 7 PCs round after round. How you modify the monster to do that is up to your GMing brilliance, but that's the principle.

Which is why I gave your "two initiative turns" proposal a lukewarm maybe, as if the same tactics were employed (stun-lock + snipe) against the RAW shadow dragon just with two turns, those 2 turns wouldn't do bupkiss for it.

2. The boss needs to be able to quickly shake off stun-locking effects of any kind. A good approach is to make it cost the boss something (e.g. a Legendary Action, one of its multiattacks, its recharge roll, hit points, its Lair Action that round, etc) in order to clear the stun-locking effect.

Bosses who can dramatically change the terrain or summon minions may be an exception to this guideline, but even then you probably want to give it some way to mitigate the worst of the stun-locking effects.

3. The boss needs to present a dynamic changing threat that evolves or tells a story over the course of the battle. This might be a phased boss like in Mythic Odyssey of Theros or Rime of the Frostmaiden. This might be a boss that at half hit points gets to use a special Reaction. This might be a boss whose environment changes - like my example of the shadow dragon getting crushed by sailing ship and opening up into an underground chasm below them and the party. In a sneaky alpha striking party situation, this might be a boss with some kind of illusion or double. In a situation with an artillery-focused party, maybe this is some kind of a force field that gets raised. The idea is that no matter what (barring exceptional player preparation), the fight is not a static you stand here, I stand here, and we wail on each other.
Count on @Quickleaf to give the best answers!
 

aco175

Legend
I like to add traps to the lair as well. They are kind of simple and should take the rogue out for a few rounds to disable them or they keep shooting things like javelins of lightning at random PCs. You can also modify them to shoot a crossbow bolt at each PC before he starts his turn. A bit like burning body ability where you take 10fire if you start your turn within 10ft of the boss.
 

Clint_L

Hero
The monster in question (a shadow dragon from a 3PP adventure) had resistance to all damage - excepting radiant (which accounted for only one attack).

I roll in the open. It's Initiative stunk. The druid summoned in dire wolves, who got it before it could get fully airborne and dragged it to the ground.

And why did it stay in melee range? It was pinned under a folding boat. There was nothing I could think to do, and I have been DMing since the 1990s. Essentially, I was painted into a corner. The dragon was a loner, in a hard to reach cave (120 ft up a cliff).

Anything I'd do would seem cheap and reek of desperately trying to snatch a victory from these teenagers who were very excited about what was happening.

What I need to do is to set up future encounters so that something this stupid and anti-climactic never happens again. And I think it's obvious that there's too many players to be able to use any of 5e RAW - especially now that they're mid-level (5th level).
I mean, it sounds like they had a great time. I wouldn't beat myself up about it. If I had a nickel for every encounter that went totally sideways on me...
 

jasper

Rotten DM
But the teens enjoyed the game, right?
Maybe you should consider adjusting your expectations to work with a bunch of teenagers instead of implying they're mocking the game by not approaching it with a "proper" degree of serious contemplation.
Or maybe the kids can get use a non clown shoes game? Sometimes the DM must embrace the clown shoe games, other times players need to retire the face paint and wig.
 

FallenRX

Adventurer
That is a quick easy fix, but i might revise it to 1 additional legendary action/resistance per PC over 3.
Legendary actions and resistances are designed to keep pace with the action economy of the players.
So it must be pretty direction, if the action economy doesnt add up, the fight will be made significantly easier.
 

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