Urban Arcana

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

As long as you think in "races" or white/black/yellow or similar terms you are dividing humanity.

If there's a human (or near human like an elf) on the cover all players are on the cover.

All changes begin in the heads of all of us.

das Darke

Agreed...but..umm...can I be a purple human with a blue stripe?

 

[Sixchan]

Thinking back to my time as a teenage gamer, all I can remember is female (lesbian) drow. Back then, I wouldn't have considered UA to be leaving me out at all. Who am I kidding? Lesbian Drow still appeal to me!

Of course, I have some gender issues, so I'm probably more likely to buy something that has women on the cover, anyway. Note that I would only admit this to close friends and the internet.


I've also been playing D&D long enough that when someone mentions 'race', I immediately think about elves and dwarves rather than blacks and whites. Which, now that I think about it, is incorrect since they are in fact species and not races.

Originally poter by Felon
...which is a good reason not to target specific age groups

Of course, we have no way of being sure that they are targetting specific age groups. For all we know, they could have just drawn a lot of pictures and looked over them saying "That one looks cool. Let's use that. She's cool too. Nah, I don't like that guy, drop him." or even "Hmm...what would appeal to everyone? Oh! Lesbian Drow! EVERYONE loves Lesbian drow!".

 

[Felon]

As long as you think in "races" or white/black/yellow or similar terms you are dividing humanity. If there's a human (or near human like an elf) on the cover all players are on the cover.

Spoken like a true suburbanite! Me, I live and work in the downtown Atlanta area. That blithely simplistic outlook tends to crumble should one have to actually confront the issues on a daily basis. They're way more sensitive and complex than just self-inducing color blindness and giving everyone around you a group hug. Some of those people's eyes burn with hatred for you. Sometimes they act on that hatred, and things get pretty real then. Sell them rodenberries elsewhere!

Of course, we have no way of being sure that they are targetting specific age groups. For all we know, they could have just drawn a lot of pictures and looked over them saying "That one looks cool. Let's use that.

True, very true.

 

[Darke]

Spoken like a true suburbanite! Me, I live and work in the downtown Atlanta area. That blithely simplistic outlook tends to crumble should one have to actually confront the issues on a daily basis. They're way more sensitive and complex than just self-inducing color blindness and giving everyone around you a group hug. Some of those people's eyes burn with hatred for you. Sometimes they act on that hatred, and things get pretty real then. Sell them rodenberries elsewhere!

Nope, living in a city all my life but thank you for guessing - in germany the cities are not as big as the biggest in the US, but 400.000 ppl are enough for such things. The region and the city where I live has a big non-"german" part - ppl from Turkey, east european countries, russia and so on. Friends of mine were victims of "non-german"-attacks - some non"-german" friends were victims of "german" attacks. But I never blamed the whole group on it - that were acts done by individual ppl not by whole ethnic/cultural groups. In some schools the non-"german" part of the kids are like 90% - so much for "suburbanite" eh?

I'm even only half-german myself - the other half is half-italian. I endured some bad stuff as a child cause of that too (mostly just verbal but as a kid it hurts a lot if someone calls your mother a ..).

But you have to be above this stuff - if not you are actively helping holding the seperating walls in place. That's what I would call "passive racism".

So long as you call yourself the "white" guy you are separating humanity - you give the fire of hatred in some ppl more reason to burn.

So long as you debate about a gaming book cover and if they don't show a "white" guy you're maintaining/buiding the walls of separation between humans.

A criminal is a criminal, not a "white" criminal or a "black" criminal (or a "german" criminal or a "turkish" criminal).

Skin color or ethnicity or religion or clothes aren't important - only what you say and what you do is.

*shakes head*

(so after your wild false guess with "suburbanite" I'm waiting for your next "guess" - or, you could just stop guessing in behalf of trying to make others look like an idiot and as if they (or I) are not knowing what they (or I) are talking about - - perhaps it's time to really think about what I said - it could be that I'm right, you know? - regardless of your answer, this was my last posting to that topic - I said all I wanted to say.)

das Darke

 

[jonrog1]

Spoken like a true suburbanite! Me, I live and work in the downtown Atlanta area. That blithely simplistic outlook tends to crumble should one have to actually confront the issues on a daily basis.

Funny. I would have said Darke was being "hopeful" rather than "simplistic". Cynicism is an easy refuge, and practicality always has a naturally superior ring to it. I've lived in downtown NY, LA, and Montreal, which I hope are ethnically diverse and urban enough settings so my opinion isn't so quickly discarded as naive.

I'm paratrooping in here, having just read the entire thread in one sitting.

First off, on topic -- UA's a nice peice of work. Good adaptation of ideas from fantasy to modern world setting, nice advanced classes, almost as many interesting power bases to build into your campaign as the fantastic Dark*Matter sourcebook. Between this and the D20Modern sourcebook, you're equipped to run any low-to-mid magic game you could imagine. I prefer the feat-and-skills psi from Spycraft in order to make the trappings of that FX farther off magic, but that's me.

As to this PC-is-WoTC-considering-discriminating discussion, you know, I gotta admit, Felon's been very polite and very circumspect in his discussion. His thoughts, concerns, ruminations, what-have-you over some of WOTC's possible choices are maybe not as separate from a larger worldview as he may propose (the comment about the Berkley professors is illuminating), but they're his concerns/opinions and he's got every right to raise them.

And here are mine.

WARNING: BEGIN RANT. NO LOGIC BANTER HERE. NO USING "INTERESTING" AS THE LAST WORD IN A POST TO IMPLY WE'RE ALL IN ONE SHARED, DRY DISCUSSION. THIS IS NOT PART OF A DIALOGUE. JUST ONE LONG, DISBELIEVING VENT OF WRATH AGAINST SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN POPPING UP TOO DAMN MUCH LATELY IN POSTS AND LETTERS ABOUT OUR HOBBY. YOU DON'T WANT A RANT, JUST SKIP ON TO THE NEXT POST. GO. SKIPPITY.

Originally posted by Felon

Just something that some folks will observe and then keep silent about lest they be accused of intolerance for voicing their observation.

The price of being an honest man in modern society, the burden ... I've played that card too, getting more and more polite and reasonable, "Hey, I'm just saying ..." What's wrong with just starting up a discussion about an observation? And look at all the heat you're wrongfully taking!

So how about this? Agreed, anyone can voice their observation. Nothing intolerant about that act. But all observation has context and attaches significance to its subject (to claim otherwise would be either intentionally disengenuous or willfully naive). Can I say that there's nothing intolerant about voicing any observation, but I find the significance behind that observation intolerant?

I'm sorry, it's one a.m. and I really shouldn't be posting this, but JESUS %#&%#&@#% CHRIST, is this what white guys really have to worry about in the 21st FRIKKIN' century? We're all dancing around here, saying "It's okay to feel or wonder this, and all I want is to not have my group be under-represented" and being all sensitive and saying "perhaps" and "may be" and I CALL SHANANIGANS!!

My point isn't whether they're doing it or not, or even whether it's right or wrong, my point is WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS HOLY SHOULD WE CARE?!

I mean, I'm Caucasian. Mid 30's. Assuming you're a white guy born in the Western world, then the cards pretty much fell in your hand vis a vis the other 5.999 BILLION people on the planet. "Hey," some people say, "using 'she' instead of 'he' is overly politically correct and implied reverse discrimination." "Hey," some people say, "not using white guys on game books may be showing exclusion to the core gamers of white guys!"

You know what? Assume those are all true. SO WHAT? Take a few cards out of my hand. Go ahead. You want a pronoun? Go ahead, I'm still making more than you are for the same job! Want some iconic characters? Take 'em -- I don't get pulled over for DWB! See what I still got? ALMOST ALL THE DAMN CARDS! Wee-heee-heee, lookatme dance around! I'm still at the top of the socioeconomic heap! WOOOHOOO!

I'm not, as some might say, some laden-with-liberal-guilt white guy. I'm being eminently (and very ironically, do please notice that before the flaming starts) practical and selfish here. But even being the most practical and most selfish I can imagine, I still can't believe any healthy Caucasian male in the Western world is so frikkin' PETTY that they worry about this sort of %$#@&.

My self-image doesn't come from society's perception of me. It doesn't come from how often I see positive roles of ... well, me in my hobbies. You know what? If using "she" gets a couple female gamers in, and my gaming group is more interesting, bring on the "she's". Some folks of other ethnic groups see an iconic that looks like them and think "Hey, maybe that game ISN'T just a white-guy fantasy game" and some kids who never would have played pick up a D&D book and our hobby's enriched by their presence, then (begin sarcastic tone here) generously (end sarcastic tone) I am all for that because it DOESN'T take away from me in any way, shape or form.

Oh, thaaaat's right, this isn't about diversity. Diversity's great! This is about possible exclusion. (Booooo!)

Wondering these things, worrying about a "trend of exclusion" doesn't make anyone racist. But a concern "not being racist" and "being valid" are not automatically mutually inclusive ideas. And even if the concern is valid -- it's pathetic. PATHETIC. "Ever suffer reverse discrimination"? God in heaven, sure, and that almost sucks as much as, say, good-old-fashioned straight-up discrimination. Or any one of the other billion crappy things that happen to you in life that you either cast aside and deal with and build your own world, or you get on the "blame other people's actions for my attitudes and fate" sled and slide right on down the slippery slope into the trailer park where you can rant about how the Jewish media keeps you from getting a job in the local 7-11.

You know what, WOTC? When you're making the covers, exclude my a$$. Exclude all you want. I ain't gonna stop playing, and neither will most of " my group of age 30+ white males" core gamers. We seem to have the highest Y-chromosome-to-geek-gene ratio of every ethnic group on the planet. If it's ever so important to me to see my white, fat typing a$$ on a book cover, I've got a digital camera and a printer, I'll do it myself.

It. Just. Doesn't. Matter. And if it does matter to some gamer out there, then screw logic, screw civility, screw mesageboard rules, just get the %$#& out of my hobby.

ALERT: END RANT. APOLOGIES FOR POSSIBLE OVER-REACTION, AS THIS WAS TRIGGERED NOT JUST BY THIS THREAD BUT BY SEVERAL RECENT LETTERS IN DRAGON MAGAZINE.

 

[EricNoah]

Given the volatile nature of the issue at hand, I think people have done a pretty good job of keeping things as civil as possible. However, this has clearly strayed into a political discussion beyond the scope of our forums. If someone wants to start up a fresh UA thread, minus the discussions of race and politics, feel free.