Urban Fantasy general discussion thread

[Ixal]

So I'm noticing at least three broad trends in the design of urban fantasy and adjacent games. I'll refer to these as "shadow hunters", "modern occult conspiracy", and "supernatural soap opera".

In what category would Shadowrun be?
Or do people still argue that just because the fantasy is not hidden that it is not urban fantasy?

 

[VelvetViolet]

In what category would Shadowrun be?
Or do people still argue that just because the fantasy is not hidden that it is not urban fantasy?

I said at least three. There's clearly more. Shadowrun is a mix of urban fantasy and cyberpunk.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Honestly, Nephilim is probably my favorite 90s urban fantasy game owing to the fusion of immortals, occultism, magic and monsters into one thing. Unfortunately it’s OOP, seems unlikely to get revived (at least in English), and wasn’t a good fit for BRP anyway.

The French version released a fifth edition thru crowdfunding, but it’s not really still an actively supported game from what I’ve seen. This edition seems to be the most mechanically simple, as it has condensed the long attribute and skill lists and so forth that were present in prior editions. I think any English adaptation would benefit from taking notes.

 

[aramis erak]

You listed Mazes & Minotaurs twice.

It's worth it.

I couldn't make heads nor tails out of Nephilim. Mage is nothing at all like The Atlantian Trilogy in approach.

The Atlantian Trilogy is a D&D-ified version of the setting described by the Greeks (not JUST Plato), and dealt with in a manner more like Hyperborea... The Arcanum 1e is the core mechanics; the Bestiary and the Atlas complete the 3-book core. Arcanum 2E maintains many references, but wasn't licensed for the setting.

Greg Porter, of BTRC, again grounds in Greek mythology, not just Plato. His setting for 1E is very much influenced by the Greek civilization model. But he places it inside the Earth...

M&M is set in a fantasy Mediterranean during an age of Heroes. It's a decent non-clone OSR game, and it's free.

 

[VelvetViolet]

I couldn't make heads nor tails out of Nephilim.

The problem with the game is that it intimidates potential players by frontloading all the invisible history rather than trying to ease players into it. There weren't any adventures provided to show groups how to run games. The rules were also complex, needlessly so, and in hindsight the standard BRP rules probably wasn't the best choice for the game.

If I was rewriting the rules, then I would heavily simplify them similar to what the French version 5e did. PCs would have just five attributes for air, earth, fire, water, and lunar; past life experiences acting as background skills, with some mechanical perks/flaws appended. New past lives could be recalled after character generation, representing recall of forgotten lives, with some caveats. This would allow players to ease into the game, and PCs could grow by recovering memories of past lives. The only distinct skills would be the magic/occult skills. If players want to differentiate their characters more, then I'd have some kind of provision for that if absolutely necessary.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Then the problem is writing overpowered NPCs that the PCs cannot hope to oppose. We should not do that.

Well, part of it is that a lot of game designs are really, from lack of a better term, terrified to give PCs any real power in the context of their setting. This is likely because they assume (not wrongly) that its easy to design problems for the weak than the strong, but (as with superhero games) that's exactly the wrong tact to take in this sort of genre.

Maybe the PCs are just that special. It is their campaign, after all.

That doesn't actually answer the question, though. You still end up needing to come with a reason for their cooperation when no one else does it. It has too much campaign specific impact not to have a clear idea of that.

 

[Thomas Shey]

In what category would Shadowrun be?
Or do people still argue that just because the fantasy is not hidden that it is not urban fantasy?

There's clearly a separator between the covert urban fantasy and the overt (and the latter has been a thing for some time now, as both the Hollows books by Kim Harrison and (though they're kind of a split case since the supernatural is partly out of the closet in them) Patricia Briggs' Mercy Thompson and Alpha and Omega books show. I think the fact the earlier books we associate with urban fantasy were in the former inevitably complicates how much people consider the two the same genre. I personally think they are, as long as the supernatural world is a bit of a thing apart.

The latter is what, however, makes Shadowrun a problem; its not a thing apart there. There's no real separation. And of course the SF/cyberpunk elements mixed with it make it more complicated yet, as I'm not aware of a fictional modern/urban fantasy fiction source (that isn't Shadowrun fiction itself) that plays that particular card.

(Of course at the end of the day genre distinctions are always arbitrary).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Honestly, Nephilim is probably my favorite 90s urban fantasy game owing to the fusion of immortals, occultism, magic and monsters into one thing. Unfortunately it’s OOP, seems unlikely to get revived (at least in English), and wasn’t a good fit for BRP anyway.

I think you can still purchase the PDFs from Chaosium if I recall correctly (and I may not). But it also suffered from the business (which was sort of retconned later, but there's a line about second chances and first impressions) about the Nephiliim being parasitic on their human hosts which left a bad taste in people's mouths, and that's over and above the question of the appropriateness of the system or not.

 

[VelvetViolet]

That doesn't actually answer the question, though. You still end up needing to come with a reason for their cooperation when no one else does it. It has too much campaign specific impact not to have a clear idea of that.

You’re right. I have no idea.

(Of course at the end of the day genre distinctions are always arbitrary).

Yep

I think you can still purchase the PDFs from Chaosium if I recall correctly (and I may not).

Yes you can. That makes it very easy to reference and share them nowadays. But they’re over two decades old.

But it also suffered from the business (which was sort of retconned later, but there's a line about second chances and first impressions) about the Nephiliim being parasitic on their human hosts which left a bad taste in people's mouths,

Which is odd, because the PCs in WoD games are not really much better. Cannibals, cultists, terrorists… at least the nephilim aren’t trying to eat people or destroy civilization.

Anyway, I have no clue how it endured in the French market; they apparently weren’t squeamish about it. The Ar-KaIm introduced in third edition were awakened humans akin to superheroes, but proved so unpopular with fans that they were all mysteriously vanished in the fifth edition lore.

If I was working on a revision of the setting, then I would tweak the nephilim into power sources rather than distinct sapient beings. The elemental lacks Sol (soul), so the will is provided by the human host it bonds with.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You’re right. I have no idea.

Its what makes this sort of thing tricky. You have to set up these immortals so that they have some reason to operate together, don't look too much like small fish in a big pond, and still have things to do. Oh, and ideally at least some of the things don't involve managing their investment portfolios and giving marching orders to their pet politicians.

Yep

It doesn't mean they still can't serve descriptive purposes, but you need to keep that fuzziness in mind.

Yes you can. That makes it very easy to reference and share them nowadays. But they’re over two decades old.

Absolutely.

Which is odd, because the PCs in WoD games are not really much better. Cannibals, cultists, terrorists… at least the nephilim aren’t trying to eat people or destroy civilization.

Barring the Changelings in 1e, they're still human at their root however, even if they're having to deal with the transformative nature of what they've become (you can make an argument about werewolves, but most of them at least grew up as relatively human beings), whereas it means the Nephiliim were depicted as fundamentally alien--and to some extent anti-human if they were willing to just take over others bodies--from outset.

Anyway, I have no clue how it endured in the French market; they apparently weren’t squeamish about it. The Ar-KaIm introduced in third edition were awakened humans akin to superheroes, but proved so unpopular with fans that they were all mysteriously vanished in the fifth edition lore.

If I was working on a revision of the setting, then I would tweak the nephilim into power sources rather than distinct sapient beings. The elemental lacks Sol (soul), so the will is provided by the human host it bonds with.

Yeah, having them as symbiots rather than dominating parasites would work considerably better.