Urban Thief Help Needed

[Pythor]

I'm an old-school AD&D player. I've been out of the game for a decade or more. I'm hoping someone can help me build a good character out of a concept I've got.
I'm looking for a build that maximizes actual thief skills. I'm willing to sacrifice combat ability for proficiency in breaking and entering in an urban setting. Climb, a must, Jump, pick locks, Tumble (for avoiding falling damage), Hide, Move Silently, Search, Gather information? (I'm thinking for learning about good marks...). A second story man, all the way. Combat might be a possibility, so a good defence would be nice, but I care more about getting out of fights than winning them.
I'd like to go with Halfling, but Human is an option. If I can do Halfling, I'd like to get access to some fire protection magic at the earliest possible level. Oh, and heap up on Excape artist (I think). In that case, the schtick would be climbing down active chimneys as an access method. Might work for a human, too, if he can get ahold of magic that would make him small enough to pull it off.
Ummm. Abilities are either Elite array or point buy, but I'm not sure how many points. I want to stay away from PRCs, mostly because I don't understand them yet. But if it's worth the extra complexities, I can use anything from the PHB, DMG, or Complete whatever books.

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

I'm an old-school AD&D player. I've been out of the game for a decade or more. I'm hoping someone can help me build a good character out of a concept I've got.
I'm looking for a build that maximizes actual thief skills. I'm willing to sacrifice combat ability for proficiency in breaking and entering in an urban setting. Climb, a must, Jump, pick locks, Tumble (for avoiding falling damage), Hide, Move Silently, Search, Gather information? (I'm thinking for learning about good marks...). A second story man, all the way. Combat might be a possibility, so a good defence would be nice, but I care more about getting out of fights than winning them.
I'd like to go with Halfling, but Human is an option. If I can do Halfling, I'd like to get access to some fire protection magic at the earliest possible level. Oh, and heap up on Excape artist (I think). In that case, the schtick would be climbing down active chimneys as an access method. Might work for a human, too, if he can get ahold of magic that would make him small enough to pull it off.
Ummm. Abilities are either Elite array or point buy, but I'm not sure how many points. I want to stay away from PRCs, mostly because I don't understand them yet. But if it's worth the extra complexities, I can use anything from the PHB, DMG, or Complete whatever books.

I would go with the Halfling, if you want pure rogue-y goodness. The human's extra skill point per level and extra feat do not compare with the equivalent of 17 bonus skill points to your thiefy skills (size, Dex bonus and racial skill bonuses, partially offset by a Strength penalty), a bonus to all saves, and racial bonuses to combat (both AC and attacks, partially offset by weapon size).

As for your stats, I'd use the following spread (assuming elite array, which is equal to 26 points):

Str: 12 - 2 = 10
Dex: 15 + 2 = 17
Con: 13
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 10

You'll need some hp advantage, thus the higher Con. You may want to talk your way out of more situations, and could switch the Con and Cha.

Skills (at first level): Max out Balance, Climb, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Open Lock and Tumble. Put 2 each into Search and Listen (not Spot, as it is assumed this character will be in the dark a lot). At second level, make sure you put a point into Jump, Escape Artist, and Tumble, as these skills will net you another +8 total in synergy bonuses. You should also look towards developing your Bluff skill ASAP for that huge synergy boost.

Feats: You may be tempted to go for a lot of skill-boosting feats, like Deft Hands, Alertness, Agile, Acrobatic, Stealthy or Nimble Fingers. In my experience, these are inferior to feats that actually expand your repertoire, like Blind-fight. Darkness provides concealment to your enemies and penalties to your speed. Few guards will have this feat, preferring to take things like Weapon Focus or Power Attack, so they will have to deal with the darkness, too. Having this feat gives YOU the edge in the dark; players of Thief: Deadly Shadows will know what I mean by that. As for feats at third level and beyond, go with the Point Blank Shot feat chain, or feats that may be required for and PrC's (see next paragraph).

Later levels: Keep advancing your core skills, increasing your Dex and Int for maximum utility. Look towards PrC's that either keep your skill points high, or that offset your racial disadvantages. My picks are below (all from Complete Adventurer)

Dungeon Delver: Big bonuses underground, including darkvision. Perfect for breaking into underground vaults and treasuries.
Nightsong Infiltrator: Following your 'prepared second-story man' theme, this PrC gets big bonuses when he is able to 'case the joint'. He can share these bonuses with the party, too!
Thief-Acrobat: Be like Puck from Alpha Flight! Tumble everywhere at maximum speed, and knock people over as you go by.

As far as Prestige Classes go, they're very easy to implement. As long as you meet all the requirements for the class at the time you gain a new level, you may take a level in that class as though it were any other class. It's just like multi-classing between the various classes in the PHB, except that you have to meet certain standards. (And there's no XP penalty! )

 

[Piratecat]

Pythor, welcome -- and Luthien, great suggestions! Two thumbs up from me.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Check about the combat dynamics that I discussed in my length response in this thread

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=145993

sure it's about Bards, but a lot of the throwing dagger stuff applies as well. Seriosuly, LOOK INTO THROWING DAGGERS as a halfling.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Prestiege classes: especially for an urban thief, Shadow Dancer (DMG 3.5 Pg. 195). Too bad they took out his extra sneak attack damage...

 

[Scharlata]

[...] I can use anything from the PHB, DMG, or Complete whatever books.

Hi and welcome!

Maybe you can use the Races of Destiny (WotC)? There is an Urban Soul Prestige Class you might take a look at. Someone (roguish) that merges with a city and it's urban life.

Furthermore, there are some interesting feats like City Slicker and Resourceful Buyer or Urban Stealth and Urban Tracking, and some new skill uses in that book.

Enjoy!

 

[Pythor]

You should also look towards developing your Bluff skill ASAP for that huge synergy boost.

I'm confused... What Bluff synergy bonus?

Dungeon Delver: Big bonuses underground, including darkvision. Perfect for breaking into underground vaults and treasuries.
Nightsong Infiltrator: Following your 'prepared second-story man' theme, this PrC gets big bonuses when he is able to 'case the joint'. He can share these bonuses with the party, too!
Thief-Acrobat: Be like Puck from Alpha Flight! Tumble everywhere at maximum speed, and knock people over as you go by.

As far as Prestige Classes go, they're very easy to implement. As long as you meet all the requirements for the class at the time you gain a new level, you may take a level in that class as though it were any other class. It's just like multi-classing between the various classes in the PHB, except that you have to meet certain standards. (And there's no XP penalty! )

And here's where I show my stupidity... Nightsong Infiltrator requires Climb 10, which I can't get until I'm 7th level, right? So my 8th level would be NI 1? And then what? continue on in NI? It loks very nice, especially the first 5 levels. OR is it Rogue then NI then Rogue then NI? That seems wrong. And can I take 2 Prestige Classes? Dungeon Delver has a lot more preqs than Infiltrator. And Knowledge(Dungeoneering) is cross class, so that hurts. Though, he does get Reduce, which would help out a human version. I still think I want to stick with Halfling, though.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Bluff provides alot of synergy bonuses (from the SRD):

Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand checks, as well as on Disguise checks made when you know you’re being observed and you try to act in character.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

I'm confused... What Bluff synergy bonus?

And here's where I show my stupidity... Nightsong Infiltrator requires Climb 10, which I can't get until I'm 7th level, right? So my 8th level would be NI 1? And then what? continue on in NI? It loks very nice, especially the first 5 levels. OR is it Rogue then NI then Rogue then NI? That seems wrong. And can I take 2 Prestige Classes? Dungeon Delver has a lot more preqs than Infiltrator. And Knowledge(Dungeoneering) is cross class, so that hurts. Though, he does get Reduce, which would help out a human version. I still think I want to stick with Halfling, though.

You're not stupid, you're jsut new to this 3.5 stuff. They completely changed everything. No -10 AC anymore (hopefully!)

Bluff synergy: With the way skills are structured in 3.5 E, when you have 5 ranks in certain skills, tehy give you a +2 synergy bonus to checks with certain other skills. Bluff gives it to like 3 I think. It should list under "special" in the skill description what skills it gives bonuses to. I THINK it's sleight of hand, diplomacy, and something else? You'd have to check, I don't have a PHB handy.

Prestige classes: They way that they works is that once you fufill the requirements for a prestige class, you are allowed to take levels in it. How many is up to you, there are no minimums or maximums... NOR are you penalized for taking more than one (cross-classing doesn't apply to prestige classes.) You could be level 7 rogue, decide that you want to take a prestige class. Assuing you meet the requirements, let's say you take a level of Nightsong Infiltrator. So you'd be Rogue 7/ NI 1. Let's say you don't like it... so you take levels in Shadow Dancer the next two levels (again, assuming that you meet the requirements.) You would now be Rogue 7/ NI 1/ SD 2. And because both NI and SD are prestige classes, you incur no penalties (to XP, etc) for having more than one. Hope this clarifies thigns for you?

Personally, I think that Dungeon Delver isn't that great of a prestige class. Check out Shadow Dancer... it really is awesome! You can teleport through shadows, and hide in plain sight. It used to get extra sneak attack dice too, I'd talk to your DM about re-intiplementing that. Or even jsut stick with straight rogue, they get some awesome abilities at higher levels.

If you plan on doing a lot of fighting, it isn't a bad idea to pick up 4 levels in Fighter so you can get Weapon Specialization... or even Ranger (try to put an urban spin on it?)

Rogue/sorcers are also pretty cool-- since you make a touch attack with ray spells, you can actually sneak attack with them. Think of a 7th level rogue/ 1st level sorcerer. You'r hiding. Oger comes along. You sneak attack it with a ray of enfeeblement. It not only takes your sneak attack damage, but also loses the Strength from the spell. Nifty!! Same goes for all rays, and Magic Missile, and pretty much any spell that requires an attack roll. The nice thing about rays and ranged touch spells is that they 99% of the time they don't allow saving throws-- good for you, because you're main class isn't the spellcaster, and thus your saves (the DC of the spell that you cast that the monster has to over-come) wouldn't be high.

Hope this helps, leave a post with any further Q's

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Rogue/sorcers are also pretty cool-- since you make a touch attack with ray spells, you can actually sneak attack with them. Think of a 7th level rogue/ 1st level sorcerer. You'r hiding. Oger comes along. You sneak attack it with a ray of enfeeblement. It not only takes your sneak attack damage, but also loses the Strength from the spell. Same goes for all rays, and Magic Missile, and pretty much any spell that requires an attack roll.

Good idea, bad examples.

You can make a sneak attack with any spell that is considered "weapon-like."

A weapon-like spell is one which:

1. Has an attack roll
2. Does damage (defined as hit point damage, ability damage, or energy drain)

Thus, Ray of Enfeeblement isn't an option, because it imposes a magical Strength penalty. It doesn't actually do damage.

Similarly, Magic Missile isn't an option, because it doesn't have an attack roll.

Most other ray spell, however, will fall into the weapon-like category. It also includes many touch-range spells (like, for instance, Chill Touch).

The damage you do with your sneak attacks when using a weapon-like spell is the same as the base spell (except for energy drain spells, in which case your SA damage is negative energy damage).

So, to provide a better example, consider the 0-level spell (Cantrip) Ray of Frost. It's a ranged touch attack spell that does 1d3 Cold damage.

In the hands of a Rog 7 / Sor 1 against a sneak attackable foe, it does 1d3 + 4d6 Cold damage. Not bad for a 0-level Cantrip!