Urban Thief Help Needed

[Synthetik Fish]

Good idea, bad examples.

You can make a sneak attack with any spell that is considered "weapon-like."

A weapon-like spell is one which:

1. Has an attack roll
2. Does damage (defined as hit point damage, ability damage, or energy drain)

Thus, Ray of Enfeeblement isn't an option, because it imposes a magical Strength penalty. It doesn't actually do damage.

Ah, but my friend... Ray of Enfeeblement requires a RANGED TOUCH ATTACK. Thus, you can

That's why it rocks. No save, just a ranged touch attack. I'd much rather prefer that for sneak attacking than ray of frost... because once you pull that spell/sneak attack trick on them, they're going to be VERY pissed off, and I'd prefer a weaker foe than a chilly one

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Good idea, bad examples.

You can make a sneak attack with any spell that is considered "weapon-like."

A weapon-like spell is one which:

1. Has an attack roll
2. Does damage (defined as hit point damage, ability damage, or energy drain)

Thus, Ray of Enfeeblement isn't an option, because it imposes a magical Strength penalty. It doesn't actually do damage.

Oh, I see what you mean. It has to be both, and not either? Because I'm pretty sure that you could get away with either... hm. Maybe the rules changed/were re-worded since 3.0? (I haven't played 3.5 much since it came out... especially not as a spellcaster.)

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Ah, but my friend... Ray of Enfeeblement requires a RANGED TOUCH ATTACK. Thus, you can

Read above.

You cannot make a sneak attack with a Ray of Enfeeblement because it is not a weapon-like spell.

It has a to-hit roll, but - and this is the important part - it does not do any damage.

Ray of Enfeeblement
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.

This is also why you cannot use multiple RoEs to drop someone down more than 11 Strength points. Only the strongest one is in effect.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It has to be both, and not either?

Yep. Both.

Because I'm pretty sure that you could get away with either... hm. Maybe the rules changed/were re-worded since 3.0?

The rules on magical sneak attacks are present in the base 3.0 rules, but were clarified in Tome and Blood, the 3.0 supplement for wizards and sorcerors.

EDIT:

The rules on sneak attack state:

Sneak Attack: Any time the rogue's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks the target, the rogue's attack deals extra damage. The extra damage is +1d6 at 1st level and an additional 1d6 every two levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is within 30 feet. The rogue can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

The only clarification required, then, was "What spells count as attacks?" Even this clarification was not strictly necessary, since in order to deal "extra damage" you've got to deal damage to begin with, and attacks require attack rolls.

The clarification that was required was expanding the definition of damage to encompass ability damage and energy drain, as well as specifying that sneak attacks with those sorts of spells do negative energy damage.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Yes, I caught that had you read my last post. I thought that it had to be either, not both.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Yep. Both.
The only clarification required, then, was "What spells count as attacks?" Even this clarification was not strictly necessary, since in order to deal "extra damage" you've got to deal damage to begin with, and attacks require attack rolls.

The clarification that was required was expanding the definition of damage to encompass ability damage and energy drain, as well as specifying that sneak attacks with those sorts of spells do negative energy damage.

Ask anyone that has been the target of a Magic Missile spell, I'm sure that they will tell you that they were attacked (while respectfully acknowledging that magic missile may not fall under the definition of a "weapon-like spell"... I think that it should.)

 

[IcyCool]

Ask anyone that has been the target of a Magic Missile spell, I'm sure that they will tell you that they were attacked (while respectfully acknowledging that magic missile may not fall under the definition of an "weapon-like"... I think that it should.)

In order for a spell to gain sneak attack damage, it has to fulfill both requirements that Patryn posted. And that's for a darn good reason. I certainly wouldn't want to have to face a Roge/Wizard/Arcane Trickster hitting me for automatic sneak attack damage with a Magic Missile.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

In order for a spell to gain sneak attack damage, it has to fulfill both requirements that Patryn posted. And that's for a darn good reason. I certainly wouldn't want to have to face a Roge/Wizard/Arcane Trickster hitting me for automatic sneak attack damage with a Magic Missile.

Nah, but I'd love to BE him
Even if Magic Missile would be too powerful for this... you have to admit that omitting Ray of Enfeeblement from being able to be used in conjunction is kind of cutting the corners... maybe soemone could make a Second level version that does ability damage

 

[Pythor]

What about Multiclassing?

I was thinking of taking a level (or a few) of Wizard or Sorcerer, in addition to Rogue. How does that affect things? I think I mentioned wanting access to some fire protection magic. Anyway, does a character with a familiar qualify as having Alertness for the prerequisites to a prestige class? Aside from that, how do I rangle Wiz 3 or Sorc 4 so with my rogue levels so I'm not 20th before I can qualify for Nightshade(typo... I meant Nightsong) Infiltrator? I assume Rogue first for the 4 X skills, but get the Wiz levels straight after that, or switch back and forth? Does it matter? I think it might, with only getting a feat at 3rd, I want that to be a Rogue level, right? So I can take Rogue feats?

I think I need a whole primer on building characters. There's a ton of dependables to remember, and I don't have a head for it. Has anyone made a spreadsheet or worksheet that helps you map out a build, level by level?

And does anyone know why the Preview Post button doesn't work on my Firefox browser? I haven't tested IE, yet.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

I was thinking of taking a level (or a few) of Wizard or Sorcerer, in addition to Rogue. How does that affect things? I think I mentioned wanting access to some fire protection magic. Anyway, does a character with a familiar qualify as having Alertness for the prerequisites to a prestige class? Aside from that, how do I rangle Wiz 3 or Sorc 4 so with my rogue levels so I'm not 20th before I can qualify for Nightshade(typo... I meant Nightsong) Infiltrator? I assume Rogue first for the 4 X skills, but get the Wiz levels straight after that, or switch back and forth? Does it matter? I think it might, with only getting a feat at 3rd, I want that to be a Rogue level, right? So I can take Rogue feats?

I think I need a whole primer on building characters. There's a ton of dependables to remember, and I don't have a head for it. Has anyone made a spreadsheet or worksheet that helps you map out a build, level by level?

And does anyone know why the Preview Post button doesn't work on my Firefox browser? I haven't tested IE, yet.

If you go halfling, there is no problem (actually, there wouldn't be one with human either.) A halfling's favored class is Rogue, so when determining to see if you incur an XP penalty for multi-classing, you wouldn't count any levels in Rogue for halflings. With Humans, their favored class is (I believe it goes this way) your highest class level. It's either that, or whatever you pick for first level.

I'd also pick rogue for 1st level, yes for the skills. There's really no advantage of taking Wizard for first level over rogue: with rogue you get 2 more HP, way more skills, and won't be as likely to die at 1st level.

As for your 3rd level feat. You don't need to be taking a level of rogue to take a "rogue feat" for your 3rd level feat. The feats that you get at first, 3rd, 6th, and every third level after that are bonus feats, and you can take whatever feat you desire, as long as you fufill the requirements for it. You typically have restrictions on choosing feats if they are bonus class feats, such as a Fighter's bonus feats (from being a fighter, at 1st level, 2nd level, and so on) And a wizard's bonus feats (at every 5th level.)

I'm not sure about your Familiar/Alertness question... I would asusme that it does. I do know this however: if having a familiar DOES count towards your alertness feat, as soon as you go farther away than a mile from your familiar, or it dies (basicly, whenever you would loose use of the Alertness feat), you WILL loose all abilities from ANYTHING that requires alertness as a feat, until you re-gain the useage of that feat (whether from getting a new familiar, or taking the feat.)

I'm not sure of the requirements for the Nightsong prestiege class. Basicly, if you are a human or halfling, you can take any combination of rogue/[insert other class here] at any rate you desire, choosing whatever class you like between the two upon gaining a new level.

If you have any other specific questions, feel free to email me directly at project203@gmail.com . Green Ronin makes a ~15 page character sheet that has a LEVEL ADVANCEMENT chart... and at the end of the packet it also has a little table telling you what you gain at each additional level. I think that is as close as you will get as far as having a cookie-cutter level advancement guide.

-Kevin-