Use of Sense Motive skill: Automatic?

[Wanderer20]

One of my PCs says every time an NPC lies (use of the Bluff skill) he is entitled an (secretly rolled by the DM) automatic Sense Motive check.

I think that way things would be far too slowing the game (can you imagine a sense motive check per PC everytime any NPC tells something that is not the complete truth), and that it is not possibly logic to have "antennas up" 24 hours a day.

What is your advice (and interpretation of the rules)?

 

[apesamongus]

"Try Again: No, though you may make a Sense Motive check for each Bluff check made against you." - SRD

 

[Mercule]

From the SRD:

A Bluff check is opposed by the target’s Sense Motive check.

So, I'd say your player is right. If you don't allow him a Sense Motive, what DC are you using?

In practice, I always roll dice if the player asks, even if there's no point to the roll. If they don't ask, I usually don't worry about checking to see whether they believe the barmaid really thinks they're cute or is just hunting for tips. If they are at a "plot point" conversation, I'll roll Bluff/Sense Motive for the general feeling the PC gets from the NPC.

Most of the time, I figure the PCs "want to believe" anyone they aren't explicit about Sensing (i.e. passive use) and apply the -5 modifier. On the other hand, if a PC is actively Sensing the NPC, I'll gauge the feedback on the results of the roll, giving more specifics about the deception for better rolls.

If you want advice on how to run your game, though, I'd say that Bluff and Sense Motive are the social analogs of Hide and Spot. If you'd give your players an automatic Spot against a Hiding NPC, then you should do likewise with Sensing a Bluff. Just depends on how much you like to roll the dice. The basic idea's the same, though.

As far as how often to roll, I'd say once per conversation. Modifiers are things like a long, meandering conversation that covers many topics; the PCs are actively suspicious of the NPC; the NPC says something the PCs know to be false; it's a "plot point"; etc. Really, the automatic check should just be something that tells the PCs, "Hey, you might want to be paying closer attension."

 

[KarinsDad]

If you want advice on how to run your game, though, I'd say that Bluff and Sense Motive are the social analogs of Hide and Spot. If you'd give your players an automatic Spot against a Hiding NPC, then you should do likewise with Sensing a Bluff. Just depends on how much you like to roll the dice. The basic idea's the same, though.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

I think it is reasonable to give Sense Motive Rolls whenever the player asks and whenever the DM thinks that the players are suspicious about something, but not all of the time.

I think it is perfectly ok for PCs to be bamboozled by NPCs without the players knowing and if you give 6 PCs 6 Sense Motive rolls in every single conversation with every NPC, an NPC will almost never pull the wool over the PCs eyes.

On the other hand, if you only do it when you are sure that the players are suspicious or when the players ask, an occasional lie will slip by. Otherwise, it rarely will and why play the game if your players almost always know when the NPCs are lying?

 

[Marimmar@Home]

IMC we handle it that way that the players tell the DM whenever they want to see if they are being bluffed. Even if they succeed against the bluff check, they just get the feeling that the NPC isn't telling them the complete truth or that he's hiding something.

If you don't like that approach, just assume your players take 10 on their Sense Motive checks and roll one Bluff check for the NPC.

~Marimmar

 

[dcollins]

One of my PCs says every time an NPC lies (use of the Bluff skill) he is entitled an (secretly rolled by the DM) automatic Sense Motive check.

I agree with you, not every time an NPC lies can be a Sense Motive check, it would slow the game down too much, and that's not what most other DM's do.

Two items here. (1) Lying is not necessarily Bluffing: a bluff "indicates that the target reacts as you wish", so there's some specific action being caused. (2) Social skills like Bluffing are usually unworkable against PCs anyway, so it's not something usually forced on PCs.

For PCs Bluffing an NPC for a specific action, Sense Motive is automatically opposed. But for general lying or misinformation, then the Sense Motive "Hunch" call is required by the player.

 

[Wanderer20]

Thanks to all for the feedback

 

[Mercule]

I think it is perfectly ok for PCs to be bamboozled by NPCs without the players knowing and if you give 6 PCs 6 Sense Motive rolls in every single conversation with every NPC, an NPC will almost never pull the wool over the PCs eyes.

As long as you're willing to apply the same argument to Spot/Hide, I've got no problem with that answer. If, on the other hand, you do give six rolls everytime there's an NPC in the shadows, you're not being consistant, IMO.

There are high-level Rangers (for example) that are so keenly aware of their surroundings that it's almost absurd to try to sneak up on them. It's practically a cliche to see a hero who is so alert as to be aware of everything around them even while sleeping.

I think it's just as interesting, and no less prone to abuse, to have a high-level Bard (for example) who is so attuned to people and the way they work, that it's absurd to even try to lie to them. Why not have PC who can be having a casual conversation with a shop-owner about the new mandolin that's being made and suddenly just gets a "wrong" feeling from him? It plays to a different type of campaign, but it's no less "cool" or interesting; and no more unbalanced or prone to slowing things down.

 

[kjenks]

Every sinlge lie gets a Bluff check opposed by Sense Motive checks for each and every creature who can hear the liar. The DM should roll these secretly.

 

[AuraSeer]

It only slows down the game if you stop to roll dice in the middle of conversation. That's not only time-consuming, it's also a dead giveaway that a secret opposed roll is happening. Ditto for the Hide/Spot and Listen/MoveSilently rolls that go along with an ambush.

I do my secret opposed rolls with a big list of pregenerated d20 results. It's just a printed Excel sheet full of random numbers between 1 and 20. When I need an opposed roll I just look at the next pair of numbers, add the relevant skill modifiers to see who won, then cross off that cell. It's much faster than rolling dice every time an NPC speaks, and doesn't tip off the players that anything is going on.

Once this sheet is totally crossed off, I'm going to modify the next one a bit. I'll program Excel to generate two d20 rolls, but only print out the difference between them. At the beginning of a conversation I'll just subtract the Bluff and SenseMotive modifiers, which will tell me a specific number on the Excel sheet that would indicate success. That would be make each check even easier than my current method.

E.g.: Joe NPC has a Bluff modifier of 10. The party's best Sense Motive modifier is 5. In order for the PCs to detect a lie, they need to roll 6 points higher than the NPC does. So each time he lies, I look at the list. If the number is 6+, the PCs think Joe is being less than truthful, otherwise the Bluff succeeds.