Use of Sense Motive skill: Automatic?

[KarinsDad]

I do my secret opposed rolls with a big list of pregenerated d20 results. It's just a printed Excel sheet full of random numbers between 1 and 20. When I need an opposed roll I just look at the next pair of numbers, add the relevant skill modifiers to see who won, then cross off that cell. It's much faster than rolling dice every time an NPC speaks, and doesn't tip off the players that anything is going on.

Doesn't doodling on your piece of paper behind the DM screen not tip your players off as well?

 

[KarinsDad]

As long as you're willing to apply the same argument to Spot/Hide, I've got no problem with that answer. If, on the other hand, you do give six rolls everytime there's an NPC in the shadows, you're not being consistant, IMO.

I rarely give six rolls to six PCs. I often roll for the closest few PCs (or sometimes to the closest PC with a few other PCs rolling aid skill for synergy bonuses for the closest one), not every one in the group. And often, I do not even bother to roll if the PCs are just relaxing somewhere or the NPC is well hidden and the PCs are busy with something else.

I think the concept of:

"Hark! I see a single eye peering at us through those tree leaves 80 feet away."

to be a bit ludicrous. Given the proper concealment, hiding should be a piece of cake. Given the lack of proper concealment, spotting should be a piece of cake. It shouldn't be the 50 / 50 chance that +15 to Spot versus +15 to Hide generally gives.

There are high-level Rangers (for example) that are so keenly aware of their surroundings that it's almost absurd to try to sneak up on them. It's practically a cliche to see a hero who is so alert as to be aware of everything around them even while sleeping.

Let me turn this around and use your own statement:

As long as you're willing to apply the same argument to every barmaid and every customer in the Inn looking at the Ranger. Or, every person on the street, even ones who are half a block behind the Ranger and step out a doorway, shortly after he has walked down the street.

Do you tell the player of the PC Ranger in the group about every single item and creature and thing he notices every single minute of every single day? Or, do you blow off every single detail (even the guy hiding in shadows in the alleyway) unless he tells you he is trying to be careful spotting things or he is in a situation where he is alerted?

There should be a difference between the Ranger just strolling down the street and the Ranger walking down the street peering down every alleyway, looking up at the tops of every building, glancing at the weapon hand of every passing NPC, often glancing behind him for people following, etc.

And that is a difference in alertness level that the NPCs should be able to notice as well. If he is alert and being careful and looking in all directions for signs of danger, NPCs should be able to see that. If he is just walking down the street talking to a friend and not paying that much attention to his surroundings, NPCs should see that as well.

Now, you could just handle this with maybe a difference in Hide DC, but it still is not worth a roll every single time and a roll for every single PC every single time. The situation should dictate as well. Ditto for Bluff / Sense Motive.

 

[shilsen]

Don't forget that the amount of time Sense Motive takes is explicitly variable. As the PHB says: "Trying to gain information with Sense Motive generally takes at least 1 minute, and you could spend and entire evening trying to get a sense of the people around you."

 

[Mercule]

Let me turn this around and use your own statement:

As long as you're willing to apply the same argument to every barmaid and every customer in the Inn looking at the Ranger. Or, every person on the street, even ones who are half a block behind the Ranger and step out a doorway, shortly after he has walked down the street.

For spot, I might, if I thought the modifiers wouldn't completely kill any chance of success. The way it actually plays out is that the Ranger character is aware of a lot more information than the player is told. The character is aware of the barmaid getting busy with the guardsman in the corner. The player might be told about it. If it's window dressing, I use it as such. That may mean a few red herrings, but that's part of the fun.

The same applies to the bard. He recognizes that the barmaid is lying about the bread being today's, but it doesn't matter unless I'm feeling verbose.

Most of the time, this isn't worth rolling dice. Again, it's window dressing. If you're talking about the ninja hiding in the corner, that's worth a roll. Ditto to the mayor lying about having never heard of the BBEG. Those are core story-line events, and they need to be handled with care.

It's the DM's job to determine what descriptions/details are value-added to the game. It's not his job to determine success or failure for important events. That's why we use dice.

For purposes of this thread, I've been assuming something like the PCs interviewing key NPCs, who may be trying to hide information from the PCs.

There should be a difference between the Ranger just strolling down the street and the Ranger walking down the street peering down every alleyway, looking up at the tops of every building, glancing at the weapon hand of every passing NPC, often glancing behind him for people following, etc.

There is a difference. The casually strolling ranger still gets his free Spot check if anything interesting is going on. If his Spot is through the roof, then you aren't likely to surprise him. If he is actively being paranoid, then he's spending a move(?) action every round to get an extra spot check. That's two rolls required to surprise him. Granted, he looks like a dork, but he's safer. In practice, I'd probably just ad hoc a +5 bonus, or some such, if the ranger was really being a freak.

Spot and Sense Motive are passive skills. You never have to declare that you're using them. There are some options for using them actively, but that isn't the main point.

 

[Mercule]

Don't forget that the amount of time Sense Motive takes is explicitly variable. As the PHB says: "Trying to gain information with Sense Motive generally takes at least 1 minute, and you could spend and entire evening trying to get a sense of the people around you."

Which is why I say I'd give one roll for the whole conversation, unless it was a long conversation that covered many topics.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's the DM's job to determine what descriptions/details are value-added to the game. It's not his job to determine success or failure for important events. That's why we use dice.

I disagree.

It's the DMs job to adjudicate the game.

If the players are busy or being careless, it is perfectly reasonable for the DM to adjudicate that they do not see the Ninja in the corner because the Ninja in the corner was hiding carefully and that is just not the PCs focus at the moment. An alternative adjudication is that because they are currently busy (or careless), they get a Take 10 Spot (which will often not be high enough).

Situations can change the "default DC" of an event to the point that they do not even get a roll (at least in my game). For example, a Rogue running down the stairs at full speed just doesn't get the Search (or Spot) roll for the trap on the stairs. It is not that he gets a penalty to the roll, he just does not get the roll because he is doing something that is antithetical to paying attention and noticing a trap.

I do not think it a good practice to reward players with free info, just because a 20 showed up on a die roll behind the DM screen. If you roll every time, that will happen.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I disagree.

It's the DMs job to adjudicate the game.

If the players are busy or being careless, it is perfectly reasonable for the DM to adjudicate that they do not see the Ninja in the corner because the Ninja in the corner was hiding carefully and that is just not the PCs focus at the moment.

On the other hand, how many times do the players need to say, "We're checking the corners. We're checking the corners. We check the corners. Did we mention we check the corners? Is there anyone hiding in the corners?" before it gets completely ridiculous?

Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive are passive skills. They're always working. Your character isn't just looking for things when the player says he or she is.

Or do you not give descriptions of what your PCs see until the players ask?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

On the other hand, if you only do it when you are sure that the players are suspicious or when the players ask, an occasional lie will slip by. Otherwise, it rarely will and why play the game if your players almost always know when the NPCs are lying?

First of all, if the PC's Sense Motive is so high that an important NPC has zero chance of winning the opposed check, then that victory has been paid for fair and square by all those skill ranks.

Second of all, Sense Motive does not reveal the truth. Many NPCs will choose to withhold information. A detected lie by omission is an ambiguous result. "He is not lying, but he is hiding something."

Third of all, if you train your players to chant "Sense Motive! Sense Motive! Sense Motive!" during every important seeming NPC interaction, you have only yourself to blame if the game bogs down.

Fourth of all, by the RAW, if the NPC is using the Bluff skill, then the PC gets the Sense Motive roll. Simple as that.

It is really not that big a deal to use the RAW and give the PC the roll. The DM just rolls the die a few times before or after most NPCs interactions and applies the highest Sense Motive in the party.

Quite frankly, important NPCs usually give us results like "you do not trust him and he is hiding something" or "seems honest enough but he is hiding something". NPCs that are the real movers and shakers have their own agendas. I play a Paladin with a maxxed Sense Motive, and I find it is extremely rare that Detect Evil or Sense Motive tells me anything I do not already know.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It's the DMs job to adjudicate the game.

If the players are busy or being careless, it is perfectly reasonable for the DM to adjudicate that they do not see the Ninja in the corner because the Ninja in the corner was hiding carefully and that is just not the PCs focus at the moment. An alternative adjudication is that because they are currently busy (or careless), they get a Take 10 Spot (which will often not be high enough).

It's the DM job to control the setting and adjudicate the rules.

It's the player's job to play the PC. It is most definitely not the DMs job to make guesses about the internal mental state of a PC and where that PC's focus might be. If the PC has, say, 11 ranks in Spot, he has proven he is the kind of person who peers into every shadow at cocktail parties -- it is a carefully cultivated force of habit.

We do use Take 10 sometimes to represent the "usual" amount of care. That is not technically a penalty.

 

[Saeviomagy]

In my games, if there's a ninja hiding in the corner, and the players say "we look for a pirate hiding in the corner", then they do not see the ninja because they were looking for a pirate, no matter what the rolls involved.

And, if they ask if someone is lying, and he's just telling a half-truth, they can't pick that up with a sense motive.

Now - can anyone help ME with MY problem? My players seem to think that skill ranks are useless. How can I persuade them otherwise?