Use of Sense Motive skill: Automatic?

[Jdvn1]

So, were you Bluffing or not?

Bah. Was I? No, but because I didn't intentionally not answer your question. I glossed over it and didn't think about it.

 

[Jdvn1]

As to intent, his intent could be to test the PC heroes, to kill the PC heroes, to ensure the PC heroes meet the Dragon and gain favor that way, etc.

So, if intent is the criteria, according to what you just said, if my intent is to hide information from you (regardless of my reasons), then I am Bluffing.

And a Sense Motive check is allowed. What you can get from the Sense Motive check should also be taken with a grain of salt. Just because someone's hiding something from you doesn't mean he has malicious intents. Sense Motive can be used in a broad array of situations, so it is useful up to a point.

Unfortunately, people try to hide information for a wide variety of reasons all of the time. This would imply that in the game, you will be making Bluff checks all of the time, often with the odds being in the range of 25% to 75%. To me, this takes away from roleplaying when the "players get a clue from the DM, just because the dice rolled that way".

I understand the sentiment, but not everyone can roleplay a 16th level Cleric with max ranks in Sense Motive. The dice is used as a tool, not as the rule, but if I were sticking to the rules then the roll would be allowed.

To me, that is the problem with having Bluff / Sense Motive skills in the game at all. I've played a lot of other game systems where Bluff / Sense Motive skills do not really exist and it makes for self reliance on the part of the players to figure stuff out, not for the DM to hand them information "because the skill says so".

I don't think it's a game-breaker, though. Just because the GM hands out information doesn't mean it's useful either.

Hence, the reason I draw the line at "if it is outrageous, suspicious, or important (either for the DM, or the players, i.e. the players ask for a roll)" then we roll. Otherwise, we roleplay.

Then again, I think people are Sense Motiving all the time. If someone says something that's a lie, people pick up on that. Whether or not it's obvious. Some people just hear something and it doesn't sit right.

I'd rather roleplay than roll play any day of the week. Roll play kicks you out of the game. It's like watching a movie, seeing a stupid error on the part of the editor, and suddenly realizing you are watching a movie as opposed to being absorbed in the movie.

Roleplay is: "What do you think I am, a gypsy out to get your gold?"

Roll play is: "He seems suspicious to you. You suspect he is lying."

I have this problem with one of my players. He starts out with sentences like: "I introduce myself." and I reply with: "Well then, do so." and I then patiently wait. It then changes to: "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. Now, offer me money." or whatever.

Of course, there's rule zero. Having fun is the ultimate priority. This is a D&D Rules thread, though.

 

[Sithobi1]

It is pretty unfair to penalize someone for having a high sense motive. Do you penalize people with high spot by making them see every little detail? Do you penalize people with high knowledge by bombarding them with useless information? Listen by telling them about crickets 5 miles away, and everything in between? No. At least, I hope you don't.

 

[Jdvn1]

Sithobi, I don't think he's trying to penalize people with high skills, but reward people with good roleplaying.

 

[Jdvn1]

To add to that, I understand his sentiment. And if I were playing a diceless or statless roleplaying game, I'd do it just like him.

I'm more of an in-between kind of guy, though.

 

[KarinsDad]

It is pretty unfair to penalize someone for having a high sense motive. Do you penalize people with high spot by making them see every little detail?

Sometimes. Not so much a penalty as misleading information.

For example, you see a man down the alleyway climbing down the spouting.

If the player comes to the conclusion that it is a thief and should be stopped, that is his business. But, it could just be a lover trying to not be seen leaving through the front door. It might have absolutely nothing to do with the plotline, but it could easily turn into a new subplot.

Do you penalize people with high knowledge by bombarding them with useless information? Listen by telling them about crickets 5 miles away, and everything in between? No. At least, I hope you don't.

Do you make rolls and then give the players the EXACT information they need every single time they make the roll?

I hope you don't. How boring.

 

[KarinsDad]

Then again, I think people are Sense Motiving all the time. If someone says something that's a lie, people pick up on that. Whether or not it's obvious. Some people just hear something and it doesn't sit right.

Actually, most people can't tell the difference. What clues you off to lies is either body language or hearing something that disagrees with your own knowledge base (including information that you have just heard in the current conversation).

Hence, the reason to roleplay this whenever possible. Players will "just hear something and it doesn't sit right" with what they know.

Of course, there's rule zero. Having fun is the ultimate priority. This is a D&D Rules thread, though.

This is a gray rules area here. Certain skills (like Sense Motive or Knowledge skills) are more in the camp of DM prerogative then they are more "cut and dry" skills like Climbing or Swimming where many of the DCs are fairly well known and understood.

You make a Knowledge roll. What does that mean? The DM decides completely.

You make a Sense Motive roll. What does that mean? The DM decides completely.

You roll 27 climbing up a ladder, the DM might say "You zoom up the ladder" and give you an automatic half move rate, but there isn't a lot of room there for much DM improvisation without rule 0. A successful according to the rules check still means that you move up at one quarter your move rate, no matter how successful.

You roll 21 on your Tumble past, no AoOs. The rules basically decide since the rules determine the DC and there are rarely modifiers.


For Bluff / Sense Motive, the DM often decides the DC or at least the DC range due to modifiers (e.g. Taking 10 with modifiers, or even rolling the dice with modifiers can result in a DC too high for the PCs to make).

The DM also decides who gets to roll.

I personally rarely have everyone in a group roll ANY roll (course, we have 6 PCs and an NPC in our group). The reason is due to sheer mathematics. With 7 rolls, SOMEONE is bound to roll 15 or higher and make most skill DCs. I tend to have one or two rolls from the best skilled members with the potential for Skill Aid by others willing to help.

 

[Jdvn1]

Actually, most people can't tell the difference. What clues you off to lies is either body language or hearing something that disagrees with your own knowledge base (including information that you have just heard in the current conversation).

Hence, the reason to roleplay this whenever possible. Players will "just hear something and it doesn't sit right" with what they know.

Well, at least, I know people who can tell the difference. Maybe they're the ones with ranks in Sense Motive.

This is a gray rules area here. Certain skills (like Sense Motive or Knowledge skills) are more in the camp of DM prerogative then they are more "cut and dry" skills like Climbing or Swimming where many of the DCs are fairly well known and understood.

Your arguments struck me as GM style, not gray rules area. At least, the book never says, "Roleplay these situations..."

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, at least, I know people who can tell the difference. Maybe they're the ones with ranks in Sense Motive.

Actually, the equivalent of Sense Motive (for this area) is being taught to police officers. It is a combination of questioning skills where you get the suspect to confuse himself and body language reading skills to attempt to understand when a suspect is lying or not.

However, the best people at it still tend to be only in the 75% accurate level and can be lied to fairly successfully, especially when it is on a subject that they have little knowledge about.

Your arguments struck me as GM style, not gray rules area. At least, the book never says, "Roleplay these situations..."

Not really.

DMG page 30

"For example, you can decide that the task is practically impossible and modify the roll or DC by 20. Feel free to modify these numbers as you see fit, using modifiers from 2 to 20."

All according to RAW.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Some of my players' sense motive skills seem to be around -10 or so. Every time they think someone is lying, they're telling the truth, then when they start telling the truth, they think they're lying. *sigh* Well, usually, but they're good about using the Sense Motive rolls and not meta-gaming what they think. If their PCs think that the mysterious cloaked stranger who just gave them a magical sword while they were wandering the Plane of Shadow is a nice individual only looking out for their best interests because they rolled a 1 on Sense Motive, they'll play it out gosh darn it, and trust that he's telling the truth. (actually happened)

So the way I play Sense Motive is:
1) When a lie is "obvious." (to a normal individual not my players...)
2) When believing the bluff could hinder them.
3) When the bluff could alter the plot of the game.
4) Whenever they ask for it.

I find that sufficient for my game.