Use your Illusion....

[Visigani]

Do you automatically belief... or disbelieve your own illusion?


Like let's say you (for the sake of argument) used an illusion spell to conjure a shadowy horse in the same manner that one would use an illusion spell to summon a shadow version of of a creature from Summon Monster III.

Could you ride that horse?

If that horse bit you, would you take partial or full damage?

If you were charmed and/or dominated would you take full or partial damage?

 

[Dandu]

You can choose to fail your own saving through against an illusion, iirc.

 

[WHW4]

You can choose to fail your own saving through against an illusion, iirc.

And going one step further, I seem to remember reading somewhere that you can always choose to fail any saving throw.

I don't know what to say on someone casting an illusory horse and riding it into the sunset because they chose to fail their Will save. That.... just breaks my brain. I can't see how it would be possible barring mind control of some sort. I can only imagine the DM's face; blank stare followed by a simple question voiced in a soft yet menacing tone: Do you really want to see just how far this rabbit hole goes?

 

[Dandu]

Do we not all delude ourselves from time to time?

 

[WHW4]

Most heartily agree. But do we then ride those delusions? Also... I'm wondering if at that point, since it is indeed an illusory horse, would not your "ride" be in your head? To your companions, you might appear to be bucking wildly on the ground shouting "YeeHAW!"

No wonder mages always get the shifty eye.

 

[Visigani]

Well, the illusions I'm talking about are created (at least partially) from Shadow Stuff... so it's not wholly invisible to onlookers.

 

[Greenfield]

Do you automatically belief... or disbelieve your own illusion?


Like let's say you (for the sake of argument) used an illusion spell to conjure a shadowy horse in the same manner that one would use an illusion spell to summon a shadow version of of a creature from Summon Monster III.

Could you ride that horse?

If that horse bit you, would you take partial or full damage?

If you were charmed and/or dominated would you take full or partial damage?

Illusions can be powerful spells. But they are only illusions.

There are conditions that let you see through them automatically. One, of course, is making your Save. Another is physical contact that it fails to react to appropriately.

Climbing aboard that illusory horse has the problem that it really can't support your weight.

Would you, as a DM, allow a spellcaster to create an illusion of a Giant as a way to break down a door? Not likely. The door isn't entitled to any Save, but you still wouldn't let the illusory giant break things.

In 1st ed it was really clear. Illusions could do real damage. It never said they could do any other physical effect.

I'd make the same ruling in 3rd.

 

[Dandu]

He talked about quasi real illusions like you'd get with Shadow Conjuration, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

If this is specifically about Illusion(Shadow) spells (eg, shadow conjuration), then, yeah, I'd think a believer could ride the shadow "horse", if only because the shadow creature is actually made of stuff summoned from Somewhere Shadowy, stuff that can even affect disbelievers on occasion.

...Which is why, just for giggles, I might even allow a disbeliever to (try to) ride such a "horse"-- except that he'd have to beat the % chance to interact each round, or else fall off (or, more precisely, "fall through").

As for willful disbelief, I'm not so sure. I don't see that it's terribly problematic to allow it, at least for the caster. If it's an issue, maybe make the caster make a DC15 Will save against his own grasp on reality; if he fails, he has to make a a Will save as normal to disbelieve; if he succeeds, he can choose his delusions freely and can "Take 1" on the Will save to disbelieve.

 

[Jimlock]

And going one step further, I seem to remember reading somewhere that you can always choose to fail any saving throw.

i think you are right...
hoever i would never allow one to fail his fortitude...