Useless abilities?

[ValhallaGH]

Dexterity only covers Reflex Save, Initiative and skills.
You cannot use it for ranged attacks, nor does it increase your defense.
...
Presence and Intellect are still not useful enough most of the time. I only buy them for fluff.

Which game are you playing?
3e Dexterity doesn't work like that, but 2e doesn't have Presence or Intellect.
2e ability scores were one of the few ways to actually hit all your PL caps - having a 40 in all your attributes gets to the PL 10 cap for ability scores, saving throws, and gives all skills a +15 bonus (with up to 15 ranks in the skills you want to be better at). Get attack and defense up to 5 and you've got a solid all-rounder PL 10 character.

Side note for 3E: Intellect is actually worth it's points for skills. Between Expertise (almost all of them), Investigation, Technology, and Treatment, it is actually a worthwhile expenditure of power points.
Presence, not so much. Especially if you house-rule the cost of skills.

 

[Walking Dad]

Which game are you playing?
3e Dexterity doesn't work like that, but 2e doesn't have Presence or Intellect.

I play both.

I referred to to Niccodaemus that I think that Dexterity isn't actually an overpowered stat in M&M 2nd.

Then was your response about M&M 3rd (currently one of my favorite rules systems) about having more abilities.

IMHO, M&M 2nd already had 8 'abilities' (stats with the same cost and similar effect):

The standard d20 ones plus Attack and Defense.

Strength became Strength.
Constitution became Stamina.
Intelligence became Intellect.
Wisdom became Awareness (much better term IMHO).
Charisma became Presence.

Dex, Att and Def were split into their 'effect components' and recombined as Agility Dexterity and Fighting.

But my problems were with Intelligence/Intellect and Charisma/Presence, which still have the same function.

2e ability scores were one of the few ways to actually hit all your PL caps - having a 40 in all your attributes gets to the PL 10 cap for ability scores, saving throws, and gives all skills a +15 bonus (with up to 15 ranks in the skills you want to be better at). Get attack and defense up to 5 and you've got a solid all-rounder PL 10 character.

Don't forget you cannot use many skills untrained. And hitting all skill caps is a bit more than an 'all-rounder' and a bit expensive for most character concepts.

Side note for 3E: Intellect is actually worth it's points for skills. Between Expertise (almost all of them), Investigation, Technology, and Treatment, it is actually a worthwhile expenditure of power points.
Presence, not so much. Especially if you house-rule the cost of skills.

The Intellect part is why I said "most". Many archetypes, sample characters or comic book character rebuilds would not have enough Intellect skills to justify the cost. Others surely do.

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Would it be unbalancing to combine the effects of Charisma and Wisdom/Presence and Awareness to one stat that stands for force of personality and clarity of mind? (Without commenting on the fluff and simulationist part of combining them)

And/or give Intelligence mod/Intellect score as 'free' skill points?

 

[ValhallaGH]

Ah, clarity ensues. That makes a fair bit of sense.

Would it be unbalancing to combine the effects of Charisma and Wisdom/Presence and Awareness to one stat that stands for force of personality and clarity of mind? ...
And/or give Intelligence mod/Intellect score as 'free' skill points?

It would make Wisdom / Awareness a lot stronger. Will, notice / perception, sense motive / insight, the skills that didn't translate to 3E + bluff / deception, diplomacy / persuasion, intimidation, and the skills that didn't translate to 3E = one of the most powerful point investments in the game.
In 3E it gives you +1 to Will and +1 to 5 skills, which is 3.5 pp worth of benefits for 2 pp.
In 2E it gives you +1 to Will and +1 to 13 skills, which is ~4.25 pp worth of benefits for 2 pp (the calculation is a bit skewed by the indirect skill caps - your ranks are capped at PL + 5, and your ability bonus is capped at PL + 5, but your skills are only capped by their components, or 2*PL + 10).
In either edition, it would make Wis / Awe the most efficient point-sink in the game. That wouldn't necessarily make it broken (nothing it gets is quite game-breaking) but it would lead to a lot of excessively high Wis / Awe for point-strapped players.


Free skill points - does this penalize someone with a low INT? Not completely irrelevant as it does come up among PCs (at least it does with my players).
It's a small but meaningful benefit. I don't think Int needs it, but it probably won't break anything - other than your brain when you double-check skill math.
I'll be honest, I've regularly used houserules to make skills cheaper to purchase, because I feel that skills are a key heroic component (and it bothers me that it's cheaper to make a super-ability character hyper-competent than it is to make a hyper-competent "normal dude").

 

[Walking Dad]

Your math assumes you 'want' all the skills. Constitution/Stamina increases both Toughness and Fortitude. You nearly always want these.

But I see your point.

Maybe Charisma/Presence could be bought with 'for skills only'...

But I'm just glad that I have only minor quibbles with the system.

Thanks everyone for the input!!